#029: Becoming the Vessel: Finding Flow in Creative Destruction With Eric Breish

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And it's everybody right.

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I don't think it's limited to the person that's just starting, or the Mark Bradford's of the world, or what.

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Everybody, at every single level, has that experience, I believe.

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I can say I've experienced it multiple times in just what we're doing and what we're creating and it's and ours is not art.

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You know, I've gone through the periods where I told Dwight, fuck it, I'm, I'm done.

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You know and you know.

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And then the next day I'm back doing it again.

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You got to have the fire right, like that thing.

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Whatever you're doing, whatever you're passionate about, it's got to be so, you've got to be so.

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On fire for it to where you can have that day and wake up the next day and say, okay, I'm going back, I'm going back to it, yeah.

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Beautifully spoken.

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Hello and welcome to another edition of For the Love of Creatives podcast.

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I am Connections and Community Guy Dwight and I'm joined by our other Connections and Community Guy and host Maddox, by our other Connections in Community guy and host Maddox, and today we are joined by our featured guest, eric Breisch.

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Welcome.

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Eric hey guys, how are you doing?

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Thanks for having me We've really been looking forward to this, eric.

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Yes, after that brief conversation with you several months ago, we know that you have probably some incredible stories to tell, and I know that you know we're excited, so I know it's going to be good for the listeners as well.

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Yeah, I know We've been trying to get this together for some time, so it's nice to finally connect.

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Very much so.

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Now we met at a gallery here in town where you happen to be one of the artists at the Deborah Ferrari Gallery or the Ferrari Gallery yeah, and I have to say that there's definitely an experience of your work there.

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I have seen a lot of your work online subsequently and it cannot be captured.

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It is a sensory experience and I will just say that, as one of those poor, tortured souls who, in the early 90s, got to see all of the people looking through that three-dimensional art and seeing things, I never saw anything.

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There is something special about the things that you produce, because I feel like I'm having my turn, because I am having like a full body experience when I get to see some of your pieces.

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Yeah, that guitar that night at the opening, that guitar that you showed us was just.

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We have talked about it many times in groups of people.

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We got to tell you what we saw, you know, and we describe it.

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Of course, the description can do absolutely no justice whatsoever, but yeah, that incredible piece.

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I appreciate that and you guys are, like some, of the first people to see that guitar.

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That was the first time that I've actually showed that in public.

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So you know, we've worked on that project for about six or seven years and it took us a long time to get to the point where we were actually ready to, you know, to let that out into the public and we've gotten some really, really great feedback and you know, it's just one of those, those types of projects, so there's nothing else like it in the world and, um, and it's been really fun to see people's reactions on, you know, not only seeing the work but then also realizing that it's an actual playable instrument.

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And when you take it off the panel and you put it in somebody's hands, especially like a musician, um it it tends to blow them away.

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So it's been really fun.

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And the type of metal work that I do and that kind of three-dimensional experience that you were talking about is so hard to describe to people or to show on videos or to show in pictures, and so that's always been one of my biggest challenges in art is trying to get people to understand what it is that I do, because we've kind of moved into this very digital society where everybody views things on social media or, you know, on computers and all of that.

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So that's been really challenging for me and and it's really cool to get people in front of the work and get to experience it and and and see them actually have that, that, that true, um, you know, experience that I'm trying to get them to have, and when they finally get it and see it, then it's like the aha moment and so, yeah, it was really cool to to you know, have you guys there for that?

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Yeah, it was, it was a treat.

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We felt very honored that we were the first to get to see that and I took some photos and, I think, a video and and although they were cool, they didn't even begin to really show the true nature of of the piece and what it looks like with real eyes rather than artificial camera lenses.

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You know, camera lenses, yeah.

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Yeah, the camera has one eye, that's.

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That's like the problem that that we found is that, um, since the camera has one eye, it it doesn't, it's not able to tell depth and dimension, uh, like our two eyes do.

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Right, and so that that experience, until we can figure out a way to kind of replicate how our eyes work and how our sensory you know perceptions work, then it's, then it's.

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You know, it's going to be a challenge to kind of present that in a way that makes sense online.

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There's bound to be a way to do that.

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I suspect you know, cause I've I've heard of people using multiple cameras and then stacking images to give it that dimensional look.

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Yeah, there's somebody out there that could could figure that out for sure.

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I have a lot of friends, a lot of, in fact.

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I just had this experience yesterday a guy that you know, he's a filmmaker, he's been in Hollywood and all of this.

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And I have several friends that are very, very you know they.

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They do a lot of music videos, they shoot for television and all of that.

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And they always come in and they say, uh, I've got this idea, I know how to do it, and we spend the next few hours going through it and it's like and then they always end and they're like that's a lot harder than I thought, um, and, and you guys just interviewed somebody, matthew um um, in in Dallas and uh, and he did the same thing at an opening.

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He's like, oh, I got it.

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You know, I know how to capture this and edit it and all that.

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And he came back to me a few weeks later and he's like hey, I just I can't, I can't quite do it.

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So I'm like I know, I know I get it.

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It's definitely a code to be cracked for sure.

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Hey, before we go any further, Eric, we know a little bit about you, but why don't you give our listeners just a little bit of an overview about who you are and what you do before we jump into the big questions?

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Yeah, sure, I don't know how far back that you want to go, but a brief kind of, I guess, biography is.

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I grew up in basically Texas, oklahoma.

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I graduated high school out of Houston At 18, I went into the Marine Corps and I was an active duty Marine for four years out in California, did that four year stint, got out, went to, I worked a little bit in IT which is kind of what I did in the Marine Corps and then ended up going to school in Florida and I went to a school that focused on music and entertainment and all of these things that are involved in.

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I graduated there and I got a degree in music recording, basically audio engineering, and so when I graduated, it was a really interesting time because all of the home recording was starting to happen.

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And when that thing exploded, then it just basically kind of killed that industry, uh, meaning that all of the big studios, uh it, it shrunk down to really big studios and you only have so many engineers that are in there.

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So it just became this, this industry.

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That was really really, um, I guess, saturated, if you will, and uh, so I started doing home recordings and I really loved doing that, love music.

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I think that that's why I became an artist ultimately.

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And so I realized that saturation and I went back to that school and I got a degree in entertainment business and that opened my eyes a little bit more to, I guess, if you want to call it, the money side of things and how to survive as a creative, and that's where that seed got planted on.

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That's really what I wanted to do, so graduated from that program and then went back to California, became a.

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I joined this company it was very small, it was like two or three people, and it was a company that designed clothing for surf and skate brands Volcom, billabong, quicksilver and I did that and during that process discovered because I was on the design side half the time, half design, half logistics and it gave me kind of this creative streak into the visual side of things, because we were doing t-shirts and hats and all of that and I thought, oh man, I really love putting together things that are visual and I never really had that experience before.

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Um, and when I paired that with music it was like, oh, I can listen to music and be inspired by that and create this thing while I'm while I'm doing that.

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So it was like this mixture and it was an aha moment, uh, and I thought I don't know how I'm while I'm doing that.

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So it was like this mixture and it was an aha moment and I thought I don't know how I'm going to.

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You know, like, capitalize on that and you know where can I bring that to?

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What can I do that with?

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And so I think over time, that seed was planted and and, and I started to try to think you know how I could do those things.

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In the meantime, I moved back to Texas with and roomed with one of my friends and, uh, and got a real job, got back into the corporate world and started, you know, supporting myself and making money.

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And, um, in one night I had a dream that I had painted this painting and I still can kind of like see it in my mind, and that was 2006.

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Painted this painting, and I still can kind of like see it in my mind, and that was 2006.

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And I woke up and I told my roommate about it and he said well, I took a class in painting a long time ago in school and I still have a toolbox in the garage and it has all these paintbrushes and paints in there so you can have that if you want it.

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And I went to Hobby Lobby after work that night and I bought a canvas and I brought it home and I propped it up against the wall and I took his toolbox and I opened it up and all these brushes and they were hard and he had all these different paints and some of them were different viscosities and they had different like one was oil and one was acrylic, and I had no idea what the difference was, right.

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So I was just kind of trying different things and using different things and I realized very quickly oil and acrylics are very different, right?

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So, um, so I messed around a little bit.

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I ended up painting my first painting and just kind of sat back and and just thought about the process and like how that made me feel and, um, and I showed it to my roommate and he was like that's not bad, you know it's, it's really not bad.

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And it was a picture of a flower, which is really funny because I don't do anything figurative.

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Um, and so I painted this picture and and you know, I just really enjoyed this process.

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It was very therapeutic, and so I just started like grabbing things, paper and everything else.

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And I started, you know, making pictures and and doing this thing and I would show people, and so it was just a doorway to kind of to to open myself up and somehow bring in this creativity that I was, that I was looking for because I'd gotten out of music, I was in this corporate setting and I didn't know exactly how I could release that, and so painting for me was kind of the door that opened and I did that for about a year or two and I lived in San Antonio at the time and then I moved to houston because I got a job transfer and that kind of brought me into into the houston art scene and it was in a really big way and really big galleries and really big artists, uh, and that's where I met my mentor, whose name is andreas, not abami's, from germany, um, and he's a really well-known artist around the world and museums and all of that.

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And you know, to make a long story short, he he kind of like brought me under his wing.

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There's a whole story that goes into it.

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I've explained it on maybe a podcast before, like in writing.

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I wrote him a letter.

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The letter hit him at the right time.

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He got a bunch of letters before you know from all people all around the world, and it just hit him at the right time.

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He got a bunch of letters before you know from all people all around the world, and it just hit him at the right time.

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We ended up meeting before a show in Houston.

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We had dinner and we just became fast friends and from that point on I started visiting him in California and you know, he just kind of slowly took me under his wing and he had never shown anybody in 50 years what he did.

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He didn't allow people in his studio, so I would just visit and I would help him with things, I would wash panels and I would clean things off and organize things or anything that he asked me to do, and I would sit in the back in this dark room because that's how we work, and I would watch him work for hours and hours and hours in all different capacities and it was such an eye-opening experience to me, the process of a real master making work, and it was so like it was unlike anything I'd ever seen before and I was getting such an education around that, but not only in the creation of art.

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But he had never.

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He's.

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He's twice my age, so he's 81 now, um, and at the time he was in his sixties and he had never had a real job before.

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He graduated from high school and he became an artist and that's all he's ever done.

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So I'd never met anybody like that before.

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And he, you know, kind of gave me permission and all these different ways to um to let go of a lot of the programming that I've had growing up, because I came from a pretty structured environment, um, and I didn't really know what it meant to be an artist.

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And that was an education for me, not only how to take a medium and make something out of it, but also to, to to live as an artist and to, uh, you know what does that mean?

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You don't have to wake up at seven o'clock in the morning and go to work and do this thing.

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And it was like he lived in such a free and Bohemian way that when I got back to my real life I was like, oh no, I don't know.

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I don't know if I can continue on with this anymore, because I've seen the light and it's and it's really how I want to live.

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And so when I broke that to my family and I was actually married at the time and I broke that to my my wife and she was like what are you talking about?

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You know, you've got this great job, you make plenty of money, and you know you're, you've got everything, security wise, that you need.

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And it's like what?

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And you know you're, you've got everything, security wise, that you need.

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And it's like what do you mean?

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That you want to become a full-time artist?

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And a lot of people just didn't understand that.

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So that for me, was um, was a real fork in the road on how I was going to live the rest of my life, and it took me from that time about 2008 was when that was happening all the way until 2015,.

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At the end of 2015, when I finally was able to pull the trigger, because I would go to work from six o'clock in the morning until six o'clock at night, and then I would come home and I would get in the studio and that's that's what my routine was for about seven or eight years.

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I wouldn't go out on the weekends and, you know, do all these things that young people were doing and uh, I was like in there, kind of like honing my craft and figuring it out and really working towards something and I would have.

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I was having some group shows and I was going to a lot of openings and, um, just really immersing myself in the artist's life after I got off of work.

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So that balance was really tough for a long time and I finally got to a point where my work was good enough to where it was in a gallery and it was selling, and then I just finally threw some encouragement of the person that I was with at the time that just said this is the hard stop date.

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This is when you're going to quit your job.

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And I fought it all the way up until literally like the last second when I knew that I was going to quit that day and I was telling myself oh, don't do it, you know it's too risky.

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And I had a meeting and it didn't go very well and I walked out of that meeting.

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It was like I'm done, I'm going to walk in there and quit, and so I did, and that for me was was like jumping off the cliff and learning how to fly on the way down, and it I just really haven't looked back ever since then and that has been almost 10 years now that and I've learned a lot of things along the way and and that that you can't really know in the beginning, right Like if you knew those things you would never probably jump.

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You just kind of had to do it and and so, yeah, I've had a really interesting life between military and corporate and all of these different scenarios that led me to art and and then now you know doing it for almost 10 years, so it's been a real wild ride.

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That's amazing.

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Uh well, first of all, thank you for your service.

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I think that we were enlisted at about the same time.

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Oh yeah, I was in the army from 98 to 2002.

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Yeah, exactly Almost yeah, 97 to 2001.

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So yeah, very close.

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That's crazy.

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I'm curious how, how did the, how did those early experiences when you were in the Marine Corps?

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What have you brought of that with you as you've progressed and and transitioned into being a full-time artist?

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Yeah, I've thought about that a lot and I wasn't your average.

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Like you know, a lot of people go into the military.

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They really adopt that lifestyle and they're very I guess they kind of become that and I didn't really.

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It didn't really happen for me.

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I was always kind of eccentric and on the on the edge and all of this.

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You know, I was a Sergeant at the time.

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I had other Marines under me and so I played the game well, if you will, but I always had this side to me that was kind of rebellious and and I knew that I didn't quite fit in.

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I knew that I wasn't going to go on beyond four years.

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It was like, you know, this is a great experience, but it's not who I am, but I but it did.

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What it did was when I graduated as a young, as a young man, from high school and went into this.

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I needed this discipline, I needed this, you know, this foundation that was going to kind of like make me mature quickly and gain some skills in life that I needed in order to like survive.

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So I went through all of that.

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I had a great time.

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I met some of my best friends and and I never um, I never regret going through that service and I still carry to this day.

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You know, you get a lot of foundational things in your, in your personality, that you, that you keep with you, and I still use those to this day.

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And I always look back and it's like that's the hardest thing that I've ever gone through, um, physically, and maybe even, um, I guess maybe emotionally, I don't know.

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I've been through some things, but, but, um, but that was a real at such a young age, that was a real pivotal part for me to to, to, to grow up, and it shapes me in a way.

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So I do carry that with me and I think it's discipline and I think it's, you know, perseverance and all of these things that the military puts into you that make you almost not shy away from from any type of experience that's going to be difficult or challenging to overcome.

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And I'm really, I'm really fortunate that I went through that because it gave me a pretty strong resolve.

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It's beautiful Eric you mentioned the word rebellious and I think that's an interesting word.

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What came up for me a few moments earlier was the word defiant.

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But just realizing that society, in order to step away from the social mores, the belief that it's not a real job, the belief that you know you can't do that full time, how will you ever make a living, all the stuff that we get hit with from everybody around us family, friends, co-workers, you name it you really do.

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In order to do what you've done, to pull away from it all and go full time as an artist, you have to be rebellious.

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You really do.

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In order to do what you've done, to pull away from it all and go full-time as an artist, you have to be rebellious, you have to be defiant, you have to be courageous.

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Yeah, and you don't really get that kind of education right, especially if you go to.

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I didn't go to art school, but I know I have tons of friends that have mfas and all that and they go through school and they learn how to paint.

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But but the schools don't teach you how to be an artist and they don't teach you how to deal with family and they don't teach you how to deal with all of these things.

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So the only way through that is to is to jump and and and go fully into and you can't really listen to anybody because everyone is going to tell you that it's not the right path or it's not the way to go or it's too risky and you're not going to be able to support yourself.

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And I think I would be doing a disservice if I said you know anybody can do it.

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And then you know, go off and quit your job.

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And you know anybody can do it.

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And then you know, go off and and quit your job.

00:22:24.586 --> 00:22:37.170
And you know I'm not going to say that because there are inherent risks to it and you know it's, there's, there's, no, there's a reason why they say starving artists.

00:22:37.170 --> 00:22:40.664
There's a reason why they they show people in.

00:22:41.365 --> 00:22:48.913
You know, I watched Basquiat the other night and you realize how hard his life was, even when he was one of the most prolific artists on the planet.

00:22:48.913 --> 00:22:55.972
Even during his lifetime he was starting to get such huge recognition but you saw how hard it was to make it and to be that.

00:22:55.972 --> 00:23:00.147
And so I want to acknowledge that.

00:23:00.147 --> 00:23:01.951
I want to acknowledge how difficult it is.

00:23:01.951 --> 00:23:30.982
But if you really have that fire in you and you really want to do this thing and you want to acknowledge how difficult it is, but if you really have that fire in you and you really want to do this thing and you want to experience the artist's life, then you can't really pay attention to what people say and you can't also pay attention to what your, your fears are, because the fears are always going to get in your way and they're always going to keep you from really stepping into that role and be willing and open to experiencing the lows and the highs.

00:23:31.585 --> 00:23:47.029
Because even if you, you know, even after 10 years of being a full-time artist, I experienced both of those on a daily basis, every single day, and you can go through that full range, you know you can have this great year of building a body of work and then have the opening and it can be successful.

00:23:47.029 --> 00:23:52.328
And then the next day you get back to your studio and you're like, oh no, now I got to start all over again.

00:23:52.328 --> 00:23:53.250
What am I going to do?

00:23:53.250 --> 00:23:54.280
What do I have to say?

00:23:54.280 --> 00:23:58.208
Now, you know, maybe that was just a flash in the pan, type of thing.

00:23:58.208 --> 00:24:15.840
So the full range of emotions that you go through every single day as an artist is just something that you have to accept, and people that are not in this type of position or have not gone through this can't really understand that, so you can't really listen to what they're saying if they haven't been through it.

00:24:15.840 --> 00:24:23.432
It's just a difficult path and you've got to be willing to walk that path.

00:24:24.693 --> 00:24:26.681
Have you ever had a moment when you almost gave up?

00:24:27.501 --> 00:24:56.249
Oh, I mean there's been so many moments where you question it and I laugh because it's like all the friends that I talked to that are artists we were just having this discussion the other day the amount of times that we go through that emotion and say to ourselves, like I'm done, like I just don't want to do this anymore, or you get frustrated because of materials, or this thing doesn't work out, or you've been waiting so long for this.

00:24:57.951 --> 00:24:59.494
You know sale or commission to come through.

00:24:59.494 --> 00:25:13.553
You're met with so many obstacles on a daily basis that it just becomes part of this, I don't know part of your part of your personality or experience through.

00:25:13.553 --> 00:25:25.498
You know the full range of of of being an artist that you have to have this thing that I don't know kind of counterbalances, the, the, the highs, right, because if you don't have those moments and you're not questioning that and just going through it, I don't think kind of counterbalances the highs, right.

00:25:25.498 --> 00:25:30.503
Because if you don't have those moments and you're not questioning that and just going through it, I don't think that you're making a lot of interesting things.

00:25:30.503 --> 00:25:31.286
You know what I mean.

00:25:31.286 --> 00:25:39.280
If you're not having that adversity, if you're not having that pushback it's not I think this is a really important part of the conversation.

00:25:39.461 --> 00:25:56.396
You know, I asked that question because so often we're siloed in our creativity and we don't realize that there are others out there that are experiencing almost giving up, or you know, like you said, shit, I'm done with this.

00:25:56.396 --> 00:25:58.763
So it's just it's.

00:25:58.763 --> 00:26:06.546
You know, it's that moment when people realize oh my God, I'm not alone, everybody experiences that, and that's really a valuable and important moment.

00:26:07.247 --> 00:26:08.529
And it's everybody right.

00:26:08.529 --> 00:26:14.813
I don't think it's limited to the person that's just starting, or the Mark Bradford's of the world, or what.

00:26:14.813 --> 00:26:19.592
Everybody, at every single level, has that experience, I believe.

00:26:20.381 --> 00:26:28.083
I can say I've experienced it multiple times in just what we're doing and what we're creating, and ours is not art.

00:26:28.083 --> 00:26:32.551
I've gone through the periods where I told Dwight, fuck it, I'm done.

00:26:37.801 --> 00:26:39.347
And then the next day I'm back doing it again.

00:26:39.347 --> 00:26:50.042
You've got to have the fire right, like that thing.

00:26:50.042 --> 00:26:51.588
Whatever you're doing, whatever you're passionate about, it's got to be so you.

00:26:51.608 --> 00:26:54.397
You've gotta be so on fire for it to where you can have that day and wake up the next day and say, okay, I'm going back, I'm going back to it.

00:26:54.397 --> 00:26:54.859
Beautifully spoken, wow.

00:26:55.779 --> 00:27:15.434
You know, one thing that really stuck out to me about how you were sharing the experience of, of living through all of those things, the highs and the lows is that there seems to be a great amount of wisdom that is experienced Like there's not.

00:27:15.434 --> 00:27:19.884
There's not any kind of a great teaching that someone can can hand to you.

00:27:19.884 --> 00:27:31.615
There's no way that you can just read it in a book or pick up on some hard lessons by watching others.

00:27:31.615 --> 00:27:43.974
You know, as much as we might try, it sounds like you have had to go through some intense experiences that touched many aspects of your life.

00:27:43.974 --> 00:27:45.505
I mean, you kind of hinted at it.

00:27:45.505 --> 00:27:51.980
You mentioned that I got the impression that there was a marriage that didn't survive your transition.

00:27:53.903 --> 00:28:01.136
Yeah, more than one actually, and yeah, I can laugh at that now.

00:28:01.136 --> 00:28:04.596
It's not an easy thing to go through and it really taught me a lesson, I'll tell you.

00:28:04.596 --> 00:28:04.625
Now, it's a.

00:28:04.625 --> 00:28:05.945
It's not an easy thing to go through and it really taught me a lesson, I'll tell you.

00:28:05.945 --> 00:28:07.409
I'll tell you a story that that's funny.

00:28:08.070 --> 00:28:17.213
I walked into a gallery in 2006 or seven when I first started painting and the um, I still know the gallerist to this day.

00:28:17.213 --> 00:28:21.826
Um, I walked in with who was my wife then, and she goes oh, you're married.

00:28:21.826 --> 00:28:24.873
And I was like, yeah, and she said that's strange.

00:28:24.873 --> 00:28:33.361
And I thought, and she didn't elaborate on it, it was just like you know, she just kind of like walked off and it was like I just it always stuck with me and I never understood why she said that.

00:28:33.361 --> 00:28:37.932
And, uh, and years later, when I got a divorce, I was like, oh, that's what she meant.

00:28:37.932 --> 00:29:06.651
Um, because if you don't, I didn't understand what it meant to be an artist and what that meant for my life, and if you were not with somebody that understands what that creative pursuit is and truly meant, so I couldn't fully understand it myself.

00:29:06.651 --> 00:29:19.241
But going through that process with somebody, um, you showed me a lot about, I I guess, what that path looks like when you walk it along with somebody that you know.

00:29:19.603 --> 00:29:33.298
If they're not in that, in that art industry or music or you know anything creative, then they can't fully understand you, right, and even when they do um, my, my second wife was, was fully understandable.

00:29:33.298 --> 00:29:36.008
You know she, she was a hairstylist, she was creative.

00:29:36.008 --> 00:29:38.838
Um, she encouraged me to quit my full-time job.

00:29:38.838 --> 00:29:40.643
She was the one that held me to the fire.

00:29:40.643 --> 00:29:41.564
I did it.

00:29:41.564 --> 00:29:42.766
We went through that.

00:29:42.766 --> 00:29:48.544
She was with me for a lot of years in my, you know, being a full-time artist.

00:29:48.544 --> 00:29:53.540
So she really saw the ups and downs and she knew what she was getting into.

00:29:53.540 --> 00:30:15.108
But at the end of the day it was still too much, it's like, because you know, a big part of the problem of I don't know I wouldn't say it's a problem A big part of the artist's experience is, and you kind of have to live in this world where you're by yourself a lot.

00:30:15.630 --> 00:30:36.028
You're in the studio, thinking creatively, and even when you leave the studio your mind kind of stays in there and I can be sitting at dinner after I get out of the studio and I'm sitting across from this person and we're having a conversation, but you know she can tell by the look in my eye that I'm not really there, that I'm thinking about something else.

00:30:36.028 --> 00:30:59.262
And it's just inherent to who we are as creatives that we get stuck in this creative loop, almost where you know especially if you're in this period of really deep creation and thinking and really giving all of yourself to that process, and you just don't escape it.

00:30:59.262 --> 00:31:00.641
You just don't click the light off.

00:31:00.641 --> 00:31:04.145
It's 5 o'clock and I flip the switch and I'm now out of that.

00:31:04.145 --> 00:31:06.201
That just doesn't happen.

00:31:07.095 --> 00:31:10.085
It was like you had a mistress I had a mistress.

00:31:10.295 --> 00:31:10.957
Art is a mistress.

00:31:10.957 --> 00:31:11.438
Art is a mistress.

00:31:11.438 --> 00:31:23.641
Art is maybe the most dangerous mistress there is because you can go off and you can have sex with somebody or you can get fulfilled emotionally or something on the outside, but it always is going to.

00:31:23.641 --> 00:31:26.435
What I've learned is it's always going to repeat itself.

00:31:26.435 --> 00:31:33.587
It's always going to be somewhat similar to every other relationship that you've ever had in some way, in some spectrum.

00:31:33.587 --> 00:31:36.923
But art is never that.

00:31:36.923 --> 00:31:38.268
Art is never the same.

00:31:38.268 --> 00:31:41.498
Art is never because I don't think it's really separate from yourself.

00:31:41.498 --> 00:31:45.667
It really is you and there's no getting away from yourself.

00:31:47.195 --> 00:31:59.487
I just wrote an article that will hit the readers next week precisely about that that when we think that it's all about our creative journey, it's not.

00:31:59.487 --> 00:32:02.064
It's about our life, because you can't separate the two.

00:32:03.955 --> 00:32:07.602
No, and I think that a lot of people that's where a lot of people get hung up.

00:32:07.602 --> 00:32:16.326
And I think I did for myself for a long time too that I was, I was externalizing that and I was making things.

00:32:16.326 --> 00:32:35.999
I think in the beginning, and maybe for quite a while, I was doing things, as you know, for a result right, like if you decide to go full-time, then you've got to support yourself and then you've got to fill the galleries with work that sells and you've got to do things that are financially responsible, I guess.

00:32:35.999 --> 00:32:53.364
And I think when you create from that space, then it somehow does separate you from the work, and I think that's a slippery slope because it starts to take away the meaning and it starts to chip away at the specialness of it.

00:32:53.364 --> 00:33:04.560
And it wasn't really until I went through my divorce last time, which is the show that I had at Ferrari Gallery last year, last May.

00:33:05.643 --> 00:33:17.457
That kind of explained that process and that was maybe one of the first times that I allowed myself to be very vulnerable in that space and make work that was so personal to me that I didn't care whether it sold or not.

00:33:17.917 --> 00:33:18.419
I didn't care.

00:33:18.419 --> 00:33:22.320
And that's a scary place to be too, because you've got to pay the bills, and.

00:33:22.320 --> 00:33:39.130
But I learned something from that process of being authentic and true and really loving the work that you're creating, because it it had such a fire in me last year while I created that show that it made me realize that that's what this is about.

00:33:39.130 --> 00:33:54.005
That's what this creation is about is about expressing yourself and letting all of that internal stuff shine through in the work and not just be this really pretty thing on the wall that somebody wants to take home and you know and show off to their friends or whatever.

00:33:54.005 --> 00:34:03.913
I'm not against that Like like I I'm so fortunate and so thankful that I've been able to make a living as an artist and I still find myself having to do that.

00:34:03.913 --> 00:34:16.396
I still have to balance making work that is saleable, that is going to support this journey, but you can't let go of making the work that is really personal for you.

00:34:17.378 --> 00:34:26.344
Yeah, I just had this feeling that the personal stuff would be the stuff that would be most desirable, because your soul is poured out into it.

00:34:26.344 --> 00:34:35.356
We went to a walk this last Saturday an art walk here in Dallas and walked into an artist's studio and she had her art.

00:34:35.356 --> 00:35:00.474
I mean it was everywhere and there was only one piece in the whole room that stood out to me, one, and I asked her about it and she goes oh, that's a personal piece, that's something that just was something deeply that I was going through at the time and she said I was really reluctant to even put it out and let anybody see it because it's so personal.

00:35:00.474 --> 00:35:05.204
And I'm like thinking, okay, there's where your real art is, right there.

00:35:05.204 --> 00:35:09.239
You know, it's like the part that you're afraid to put out.

00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:13.652
There is the part that the collectors are looking for.

00:35:13.652 --> 00:35:18.262
They want to connect to something deeper than just something pretty on the wall.

00:35:18.262 --> 00:35:27.646
Yeah, they want something that speaks of something the artist was going through that created that.

00:35:28.286 --> 00:35:29.389
I mean that one piece.

00:35:29.389 --> 00:35:34.186
Nothing in there even remotely looked like that one piece.

00:35:34.186 --> 00:35:36.943
I said would you sell that Because I'm eyeing it?

00:35:36.943 --> 00:35:42.902
And she was like, oh, I don't know, I'm not through with it, yet Not physically through painting.

00:35:42.902 --> 00:35:43.684
She had finished it.

00:35:43.684 --> 00:35:53.063
She wasn't through with the emotional part that was connected to it, and I just wanted to say that's where you need to go.

00:35:53.063 --> 00:35:59.592
Everything in here needs to be something that you poured as much of your soul into as that.

00:36:00.416 --> 00:36:38.567
I hope you told her that, because that kind of outside perspective and wisdom is something that artists need to hear, because she's probably scared to go there, she's probably scared to be vulnerable, she's probably scared to touch that part of herself and she did, and now she's maybe even reluctant to show it because it's still so deeply rooted in her Right and I think that takes artists a long time to get to that place, to be able to express not only in that, in that way, privately, but also to put it out for people to see and judge and diagnose and like all of these, you know, these things that make us feel uncomfortable.

00:36:39.570 --> 00:36:43.222
I would love to ask your opinion on something, your take on this.

00:36:43.222 --> 00:36:47.876
Now I have dabbled, I've painted a little bit, I did photography for years.

00:36:47.876 --> 00:36:50.400
I'm a creative, for sure.

00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:57.009
I like to cook, I bake, I can do a lot of things.

00:36:57.009 --> 00:37:00.340
Now I'm the jack of all trades and not a master of probably any of them.

00:37:00.340 --> 00:37:07.367
I was a hairdresser, makeup artist for 40 years when I closed my business and retired, so everything I've ever done has been creative.

00:37:08.074 --> 00:37:21.965
But I'm wondering I have this feeling as I watch artists bona fide artists, people that make art to sell that you can't just put your art out there.

00:37:21.965 --> 00:37:27.740
You have to put yourself out there, because the art is an extension of you.

00:37:27.740 --> 00:37:36.719
And I see so many artists that they want to put their stuff out there, but they want to hide behind a wall over there and not be seen.

00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:40.766
And then they wonder why nobody's buying their art.

00:37:41.686 --> 00:37:44.777
And this is my take and I want to hear your take on it.

00:37:44.777 --> 00:37:56.530
But my take is the artist is buying you on some level, just like the artists, not the artist, the collectors.

00:37:56.530 --> 00:38:09.039
The collectors are buying you in some regard, just like my clients were buying me in some part when they came and sat in my chair and let me do magic on them, because anybody could have done that, you know.

00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:20.326
But they came because they wanted me and I'd love to hear how you and where are you in that Do you put yourself out there as much as you put your art out there?

00:38:20.326 --> 00:38:24.746
Because this is a conversation that just doesn't exist right now.

00:38:24.746 --> 00:38:25.206
I don't think.

00:38:26.114 --> 00:38:35.922
Yeah, and I think that's a great observation and maybe one of the most important parts of being an artist and putting your work out into the world.

00:38:35.922 --> 00:38:56.922
Because, you are right, people do want to connect to who you are, what your story is, what's the meaning, because a lot of the times you put the work up and that's why I like to go to openings and have openings and allow people to see the art but then also have a chance to speak with me, because maybe they have questions around it and some artists don't like to talk about it.

00:38:56.922 --> 00:39:12.204
I think Cy Twombly famously said you know, people have the audacity to ask me what the painting means and he's like I've said everything I need to say, right, like it's already out there, it's already on the canvas, and I respect that.

00:39:12.204 --> 00:39:22.329
I don't know if that's a shield, I don't know if that's something that maybe artists use as a way to deflect from having to be vulnerable.

00:39:23.331 --> 00:39:38.306
But I've always enjoyed, because I was an art admirer before I was an artist, right, so I got to see lots of artist talks and I got to really meet a lot of really interesting people and I always loved that aspect of it.

00:39:38.306 --> 00:39:50.375
So when I became a full-time artist, then it was my opportunity to kind of give that experience to other people and I feel like that's maybe one of the only times that I don't know.

00:39:50.375 --> 00:39:59.177
I have a lot of fun creating, but if you don't get the experience to talk to people about it and to share it and to share your story behind it, then I think you're kind of missing like half of it.

00:39:59.177 --> 00:40:00.742
You know what I mean.

00:40:00.742 --> 00:40:07.583
Like you're you're missing a big chunk of why you're doing this thing why you're doing it, but also why they're buying it.

00:40:08.125 --> 00:40:12.829
Yeah, yes, yeah Well, and a lot of times I don't even get to tell that story right.

00:40:12.829 --> 00:40:14.351
So I have galleries that are across the U?

00:40:14.351 --> 00:40:19.592
S and I send the paintings off after I'm done they disappear out into the world and I never know where they go.

00:40:19.592 --> 00:40:25.264
So I don't get to have any of that, that interaction, and I don't get to explain any of that stuff.

00:40:25.324 --> 00:40:36.137
And I think that's a really hard thing with abstract artists is because we're not figurative, because we're not expressing something so directly that has this meaning.

00:40:36.137 --> 00:40:41.900
Like when you look at it and maybe it's a landscape or a photograph or something else, it's like that's what that thing is.

00:40:41.900 --> 00:40:44.918
Maybe there's some underlying means that you have to unravel out of that.

00:40:44.918 --> 00:40:54.123
But from an abstract perspective, a lot of the times people don't know what they're looking at and they're just they're just putting their own two cents of what they're getting out of.

00:40:54.123 --> 00:41:00.231
It makes them feel something when they walk up and stand in front of it and they buy it because it gives them a feeling.

00:41:00.231 --> 00:41:04.282
It may not be the feeling that I had, but you know it's.

00:41:04.541 --> 00:41:06.204
we have the means to fix that.

00:41:06.204 --> 00:41:19.123
Now you know, you can go on your YouTube channel and and punch a video on and talk about the art that you're either painting or have completed either way, and what's coming up for you and what it means for you.

00:41:19.123 --> 00:41:37.309
Or you could record a little video sharing what you were going through as you worked on this piece and put a QR code in that gallery that you ship it far away to, where they just QR code it and they see a little two-minute video that tells them where they connect with.

00:41:37.309 --> 00:41:39.635
There's so many ways that this could happen.

00:41:39.635 --> 00:42:01.088
I don't have a marketing background at all, but as a hairdresser, I had to get really creative in how to get myself out there and get people to want what I offered, because I worked in a zip code that had over 200 salons times the number of hair cutters in each salon and so I had to figure out how to be seen.

00:42:02.775 --> 00:42:14.146
And artists are the same way how to connect with people, to let them know that you're the person that they needed to buy from or needed to work with.

00:42:15.396 --> 00:42:17.119
Well, I think it's a double-edged sword right.

00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:25.217
We're so lucky right now that we have that opportunity and that we have all the different social medias and all the different ways that we can connect with people.

00:42:25.217 --> 00:42:27.442
It's better than it's ever been.

00:42:27.442 --> 00:42:35.201
So I do encourage artists to always utilize those channels, because it's free, number one, and you get to put that out there.

00:42:35.201 --> 00:42:41.722
I, as I say that I'm not good at that, I don't normally take the time to.

00:42:41.722 --> 00:42:47.646
I have friends that are so good at like setting their cameras up and videoing the whole process and then editing it, and then blah, blah, blah.

00:42:47.646 --> 00:42:59.347
I'm like it's enough for me just to get in the studio and create the thing right Now that I have to do all this other stuff and all of this, you know, behind the scenes, um but what?

00:42:59.427 --> 00:43:05.588
what have you simplified and just did little, two or three minutes shorts, that you didn't do any editing to?

00:43:06.056 --> 00:43:11.014
Yeah, I know I'm getting, I'm getting a lot of feedback from friends and people and everything.

00:43:11.014 --> 00:43:14.523
You should just do this right, like take advantage of it.

00:43:14.523 --> 00:43:41.405
So I'm I'm slowly stepping into that, but I think that's why I took on galleries, because, um, not only is there this like prestige around galleries, because that gets you into museums or like whatever, it gets you exposed to the broader, the bigger collectors, uh, but it also takes away the need for you to go out and push that and to be seen and it kind of gets taken care of for you in that setting.

00:43:41.405 --> 00:43:47.878
And I think that that's a big reason why I went that route was because I can just create and I can just give it to them and then they can do it.

00:43:47.878 --> 00:43:54.188
That's not always as effective anymore as probably going out and doing some of that on your own.

00:43:54.289 --> 00:43:57.623
So and I think you could create a hybrid.

00:43:57.623 --> 00:44:09.507
You know, you could be in a gallery, somewhere where they're handling all that, and you could still have a little QR code with a video that clearly connected you to your your perspective.

00:44:09.507 --> 00:44:10.471
Collector.

00:44:11.193 --> 00:44:16.371
Yeah, I think another big piece of the art, of, uh, of the art that you create.

00:44:16.534 --> 00:44:22.148
You know, you, you mentioned before that you you don't deal with things that are figurative.

00:44:22.494 --> 00:44:54.951
It's something that is, when I experience one of your pieces, it does a great deal for me in that I can, I'm looking at a reflection of sorts, which there's some irony there, because you're you're working with a medium that is naturally reflective, but I can see a true, um, a true aspect of myself that is not otherwise captured.

00:44:54.951 --> 00:45:09.762
And when I experience your pieces, it's a bit of a conversation and it's a complete sensory uh experience because my, my proprioception is suddenly challenged.

00:45:09.762 --> 00:45:23.742
I I have had the experience of viewing some of your paintings and because of the experience of having my depth perception challenged, I am thrown off balance.

00:45:23.742 --> 00:45:33.836
Yeah, that's something to behold and I think you know, maybe that's the experience that people have.

00:45:33.836 --> 00:45:46.827
Being with one of your works is probably something else that should be captured and shared, Because, I'm telling you, just seeing the work leaves a lot on the table.

00:45:46.827 --> 00:45:57.335
There's so many things that will not come from just seeing you in the studio that will not come from just seeing you in the studio.

00:45:58.414 --> 00:46:05.204
Yeah, I appreciate that, because I don't often get that perspective because I see the work differently, right, like I'm with it every single day, and it's been two decades now.

00:46:05.204 --> 00:46:10.222
So you lose that kind of perspective that other people get, especially the first time that they witness it.

00:46:10.222 --> 00:46:16.425
So I'm always so appreciative to like get brought back to that point of seeing it through fresh eyes.

00:46:16.425 --> 00:46:18.735
Um, I think what a lot of people don't.

00:46:18.735 --> 00:46:28.971
They get stuck on this dimensional movement and they get like what I call op art, right Like from the seventies, the op optical art, meaning the illusion of art.

00:46:29.652 --> 00:46:42.195
Um, that people put into that and I fall into that category somewhat, and but for me it takes it a step further from reflectivity and this, this kind of like dimensional movement.

00:46:42.195 --> 00:47:02.684
But what people don't really understand, because they don't get to see the process of it getting made, is I had this, this really powerful tool in my hand that I'm using, that can take your finger off in a split second and it's dangerous and it's loud and it's like and I'm and I'm utilizing it in such a way because of the way that we've developed certain aspects of the tool that makes me.

00:47:02.684 --> 00:47:10.860
It allows me to use it like a scalpel, almost right, like very finely, or like a paintbrush, like a paintbrush.

00:47:11.041 --> 00:47:13.027
I mean, there's literally strokes.

00:47:13.027 --> 00:47:18.539
You know it's like you're painting with something that's scratching.

00:47:18.539 --> 00:47:22.947
It's hard to describe, it has an engraving type quality to it.

00:47:23.934 --> 00:47:46.585
Yes, and what people don't realize, because they don't see it, is that every single line that's in that painting it's placed at, it's placed very precisely because the way that it works is an overhead light shines on a piece of metal and when I score that piece, that that piece of metal, in such a way it either reflects or it absorbs light.

00:47:46.585 --> 00:47:50.262
Okay, if you can wrap your head around that like oh absolutely.

00:47:50.804 --> 00:47:56.567
I make the stroke on there and either shines light back at me or it absorbs it, and that depends on the angle at which I placed that.

00:47:57.375 --> 00:48:08.315
So, and you've got that angle down, Now you know exactly how to turn, hold that tool, to cut that metal in a manner where you, you decide, and it's probably even a continuum.

00:48:08.315 --> 00:48:13.588
It's not just reflect or it's everything in between.

00:48:13.588 --> 00:48:15.442
So there's this subtle nuance.

00:48:16.456 --> 00:48:17.798
So you can't get stuck on.

00:48:17.798 --> 00:48:34.724
And here's where the really difficult thing is is you can't get stuck on like walking up to it and being so careful, right, because then it becomes it doesn't have any feeling to it because it becomes kind of scientific and almost like robotic, right.

00:48:34.724 --> 00:48:57.539
So you've got to find this balance between knowing the angle, knowing the, the, how hard or soft to push on it, where to leave a reflective point and then an absorbing point, because that gives you the dimensionality right Like the, the, the blackness or the shining, the dimensionality right Like the blackness or the shining.

00:48:57.539 --> 00:49:27.275
And so having to do that in such a way that because when I create I listen to music, right, so I'm almost like a musician in a way that is, listening to the music that's going on and I'm responding to that and I'm putting my you know, like if I was a jazz player and I was putting my solo into that mix, it's capturing this movement that is very fluid and it's very to me, it's very musical and that's a way for me to put on canvas.

00:49:27.275 --> 00:49:32.735
It's almost like freeze framing my action into the piece of metal, right.

00:49:32.735 --> 00:49:49.996
So I put those marks on there, I put that, that configuration together it creates a composition and basically it is a a way to kind of stamp that of this, of this record that I just listened to and my involvement within that, and it just kind of freezes it.

00:49:49.996 --> 00:50:08.858
But at the same time and I know that you got something to say when you witness that, and you witness that movement and you experience that, and you feel that it is literally capturing my essence onto the face of the panel and it is left there for you to now experience and interpret however you want to.

00:50:27.969 --> 00:50:30.530
Eric, did those strokes that you make?

00:50:30.530 --> 00:50:31.152
Did they flow with?

00:50:31.152 --> 00:50:31.411
The pay?

00:50:31.411 --> 00:50:48.105
Attention is, if you're not what I call in the flow state and you're too focused on creating or you're not focused enough on creating, there's a balance in between that Right.

00:50:48.105 --> 00:51:01.197
And if you're not in that flow state and really free with all of that'm really in flow state with and I'm everything comes together right as it should, you witness whatever that kind of like divine intervention is like.

00:51:01.197 --> 00:51:02.844
That, for me, is where the magic is.

00:51:02.844 --> 00:51:05.150
Is I get done and I'm like I almost wasn't present for it.

00:51:05.150 --> 00:51:13.226
I almost stepped outside of myself and let everything flow through the way that it needed to, and then that's what is done.

00:51:13.327 --> 00:51:18.199
That's what gets captured way that it needed to, and then that's what is done, that's what gets captured.

00:51:18.199 --> 00:51:28.117
I love that you spoke of being connected to source, because I personally believe that art and creativity, in all ways is, it is an element of spirituality.

00:51:28.117 --> 00:51:39.054
I mean, you can't really it's like trying to separate, you know, the creativity from your soul.

00:51:39.054 --> 00:51:40.036
They're one in the same.

00:51:40.036 --> 00:51:42.007
Spirituality is just, it's coming.

00:51:42.007 --> 00:51:45.090
I always say I'm not the creator, I'm the messenger.

00:51:45.090 --> 00:51:48.146
It's not coming from me, it's coming through me.

00:51:49.061 --> 00:51:53.949
We're a vessel, right, like we're a vessel, it's kind of arrogant to think that it's funny.

00:51:53.949 --> 00:51:57.684
I had this conversation with my mentor and he doesn't really feel this way.

00:51:57.684 --> 00:52:14.994
But I feel like we are vessels and we allow things to come through and it's kind of arrogant in a way to think that it's coming all for me, it's all my genius, it's all you know, and, and I don't know, maybe I thought that way in the very beginning, like, oh, look, look what I'm doing.

00:52:14.994 --> 00:52:30.322
But it wasn't until I started to kind of experience that and step outside of myself and let that flow through, where you're like, oh, this is bigger than me, this is bigger than what my ego is, or you know, I just have to step out of the, I have to connect, step out of the way, see that magic happen.

00:52:30.322 --> 00:52:34.050
And then you start to understand that it's not just about yourself.

00:52:34.530 --> 00:52:37.664
I mean, you're still a genius at being the conduit, though.

00:52:38.907 --> 00:52:39.889
Yeah, I think that's.

00:52:40.289 --> 00:52:42.121
That's like the hard balance right Like it's.

00:52:42.362 --> 00:53:19.780
It's kind of like creating the work, it's being present enough to control but then also being free enough to let that come in the way that it needs to, and those things join together and it's like an explosion and you know after amount of time, after however many years, that you do this thing when that's taking place Because I certainly make it work now where I know that I'm not in that zone and it shows and then I have to step back and I'm like, okay, you didn't do the things that you needed to do in order to connect in that way, and I've gotten better with over the years on trying to kind of navigate that and hone that and know when the right time is.

00:53:19.800 --> 00:53:24.521
A lot of people like you got to get in the studio every day and you got to make work and that's for me.

00:53:24.521 --> 00:53:50.833
I understand that, that you know that idea, but for me I know if I step into the studio on a day that I'm off mentally or, you know, spiritually or any of these other things, maybe even physically, I know that I'm not going to get the connection and the magic that I need in order to make the work that I want, and so that for me, is like I give myself grace and permission to not enter the studio if I don't feel it.

00:53:52.141 --> 00:53:55.708
Yeah, I think that grace and permission is important.

00:53:55.708 --> 00:54:02.813
I do have another perspective that I'd like to share with you, if you're open.

00:54:02.813 --> 00:54:07.030
I woke up this morning.

00:54:07.030 --> 00:54:12.025
I've got a little bit of a health condition and I woke up this morning and I had a really rough night.

00:54:12.025 --> 00:54:16.514
Last night I have had some anxiety.

00:54:16.514 --> 00:54:17.786
I didn't feel good at all.

00:54:17.980 --> 00:54:24.079
I told Dwight I don't know if I can be present to do the interview, not interview the conversation with Eric.

00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:41.681
He was prepared to talk to you without me minute.

00:54:41.681 --> 00:55:01.628
I chose to come and what I'm finding is I didn't force myself to do anything, I just showed up and in the showing up, in spite of everything that was going on that I thought would prevent me from being to be fully present, it has come through me because I just said you know, I'm just going to suit up and show up and let it unfold, and I didn't force myself.

00:55:01.628 --> 00:55:13.702
But I did say you know, I'm just going to see what happens and I feel, in just this hour of conversation, I feel better than I have in the last 12 hours.

00:55:14.666 --> 00:55:26.730
I love that and I appreciate you being vulnerable to that, and I can certainly understand the health issue and how hard it is to overcome that and to step in and actually show up and go through that.

00:55:26.730 --> 00:55:43.123
And you are right, because I don't want to make it sound like not showing up is the answer, because sometimes it's exactly what you need to do when you don't feel like it in order to shift your energy or your you know, your mindset or whatever to get out of whatever you're in.

00:55:43.123 --> 00:55:44.487
And I suffer.

00:55:44.487 --> 00:55:46.530
So I'm a disabled vet.

00:55:46.530 --> 00:55:47.773
I suffer from.

00:55:47.773 --> 00:55:49.702
I had back surgery in 2019.

00:55:49.702 --> 00:56:13.472
They think that I might need it again, but I have a disc issue in my lower back that is sometimes debilitating and it's really hard to do what I do because it's so physical, and so I battled that for a really long time and that has a great deal of impact on how we show up as people and how we show up as, like, creatives right.

00:56:14.233 --> 00:56:14.755
Absolutely.

00:56:16.460 --> 00:56:21.297
So I really feel that in some days, maybe more often than not, I do have to force myself physically.

00:56:21.297 --> 00:56:30.545
That's why I kind of like pause on the physical side, Cause I'm like I always have a feeling of like, oh I could not go do this today and save my body some wear and tear, Right.

00:56:30.545 --> 00:56:41.239
But um, but, you're right, I think the magic kind of shows up sometimes when you don't feel prepared or ready, and then you step into it and you get something unexpected out of it.

00:56:41.501 --> 00:56:52.592
So well, and when the magic shows up specifically right now in this conversation with you, all the things that were plaguing me and it all, it all went away.

00:56:52.592 --> 00:56:54.420
Yeah, you know that.

00:56:54.420 --> 00:56:55.784
Wonderful, and I don't.

00:56:55.784 --> 00:57:01.275
I suspect that I'm going to feel better for the rest of the day than I did before I came on the call.

00:57:01.275 --> 00:57:10.123
I'm not saying it's going to fix everything, but I I'm I'm pretty sure I'm going to feel better for the rest of the day than I did before I came on the call.

00:57:10.925 --> 00:57:12.106
And what does that mean?

00:57:12.106 --> 00:57:13.009
Right yeah.

00:57:13.028 --> 00:57:13.570
What is that?

00:57:13.570 --> 00:57:16.153
It speaks to the power of community.

00:57:16.153 --> 00:57:23.900
I mean, here we are, we're, we're doing this thing and it's because we have a genuine interest to focus.

00:57:23.900 --> 00:57:29.246
We're, we're very much in tune and caring about each other.

00:57:29.246 --> 00:58:03.054
And, um, I, I know that the condition that Maddox has it is serious, and it's one of those things where there are days when we alter our plans because we just need to be careful, and I'm so glad that just sitting down for this conversation turned out to be just the medicine that he needed to get him in a better state.

00:58:04.195 --> 00:58:06.177
Well, I was having a hard time missing it.

00:58:06.177 --> 00:58:23.742
You know, from the night we met you at that gallery, I just when we meet, we meet people that we just I just know it's going to be an amazing conversation and I live for that, you know, I just live for that, and so I'm glad I pushed myself a little bit.

00:58:23.742 --> 00:58:26.648
I didn't force, but I did nudge and push myself.

00:58:26.648 --> 00:58:30.221
We're kind of running a little bit long.

00:58:30.221 --> 00:58:35.224
And I have one more question that I really want to ask, and maybe Dwight has more too.

00:58:35.224 --> 00:59:03.132
But you, is there anything that you've maybe felt throughout that, something that's been present, that you've never said out loud?

00:59:07.181 --> 00:59:10.088
So a feeling that I've had through being an artist.

00:59:10.088 --> 00:59:12.512
Is there anything that I have not expressed?

00:59:12.512 --> 00:59:32.764
Is there anything that I have not expressed Maybe not publicly, privately?

00:59:32.764 --> 00:59:33.806
I've had some conversations with friends around.

00:59:33.806 --> 00:59:34.588
I think something specific maybe is.

00:59:34.608 --> 00:59:35.932
I had this with Jim Ferrari, actually right from Ferrari Gallery.

00:59:35.952 --> 00:59:48.800
We had this conversation in his studio, I think it was last year, and we got on the topic of family and, you know, having a family specifically and and as you know, you know I've gone through these divorces and I haven't been successful in that area of my life and I've been successful in most areas of my life and not that one.

00:59:48.842 --> 01:01:08.454
And there's been I don't know, there's been some resentment around that, I think, with art, because I'm like, oh, being a creative or the art is the thing that you know, that kind of sabotage those relationships and it's because I'm this way and and so I held some resentment maybe around art and it's been something that I've worked through for the past couple of years and it's prevented me from also maybe having kids, because I know how difficult it is to not only survive as an artist but to have enough time and energy and all of these other things that go into having children and a family, and so I think something that I haven't really talked about publicly is just that feeling of selfishness around being an artist and admitting that to myself, because I always tried to kind of like ride that line and I just wasn't very good at it, and I don't think that we give ourselves permission, because we get taught like you grow up, you get a job, you have a family, you retire and then you die right, like that's kind of the way that at least I was brought up, and so when I saw that structure and then I strayed from that structure, I felt almost guilty.

01:01:09.079 --> 01:01:26.485
And then me trying to force something to work because I thought I had to was, uh, was something that I have struggled with, that I still struggle with, and, um, there's a certain level of kind of like maybe loneliness or emptiness around not having that.

01:01:26.485 --> 01:01:35.090
Um, but my talk with jim because you know he doesn't have kids either and he said something to me that I'll never forget.

01:01:35.090 --> 01:01:50.648
He said it wasn't really on my heart to have children and that really hit me in such a way that I had to look internally and say, okay, is that really on my heart?

01:01:50.648 --> 01:01:57.905
Is that something that I really want, or is it something that I think that I want and I've really been debating?

01:01:57.925 --> 01:01:59.710
that I think that you're supposed to want.

01:02:00.300 --> 01:02:06.432
That I'm supposed to want, yeah, that I give myself permission not to do those things.

01:02:06.432 --> 01:02:21.010
And I have given myself permission to not do a lot of things that I was supposed to do, but this one, for whatever reason, was just really difficult for me to swallow, whether that's biological or just from a societal standpoint.

01:02:21.010 --> 01:02:48.483
But, yeah, I think that's something that balance between creativity and, I guess, normalcy, if you will, because it seems to be pretty normal for people just to go down this path, but I'm just not one of those people, and that has been something that I've kind of recently allowed myself to not only acknowledge but come to terms with and say I'm sure there's a lot of people that feel that way.

01:02:48.483 --> 01:03:05.911
You know, there's a lot of people that maybe struggle with that, that that that doesn't get talked about, um, and so, yeah, if there's anything that I haven't really discussed before, is just my, my struggle with, uh, with selfishness and as it relates to creativity and and what that means.

01:03:06.420 --> 01:03:08.902
You know, I don't think it's selfish.

01:03:08.902 --> 01:03:15.407
Yeah, I think art makes a huge frigging difference in our world.

01:03:15.407 --> 01:03:26.836
You put stuff out there that change people's lives in many ways, energetically, spiritually, in many ways, and I don't think it's selfish even a little bit.

01:03:27.739 --> 01:03:28.902
Yeah, I appreciate that.

01:03:28.902 --> 01:03:33.050
I think a lot of creatives understand that it's everybody else that doesn't understand it.

01:03:33.050 --> 01:03:34.512
Right, Like it's the people that.

01:03:35.000 --> 01:03:37.304
And that's on them yeah that's on on them.

01:03:37.985 --> 01:04:26.199
That's what I had to get to I'm reminded as, as you're, you're sharing that, that feeling of of not being able to to have children to follow the script of a conversation that we had recently with someone that has made a real contribution to the restaurant scene here in Dallas, and at one point he described how he has lots of restaurant children, thousands of restaurant children, and it's because of the way that he has poured himself into his passion and been able to see real differences in people's lives and made a real difference.

01:04:26.199 --> 01:04:29.483
And that's where he gets that fulfillment.

01:04:29.483 --> 01:04:49.157
And I think that we need to allow for there to be permission for us to see what it is that we're doing, to proliferate in a way that, even though it may not look like the template that we're handed, that it's honest for who we are.

01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:53.028
Exactly, family is not always biological.

01:04:53.028 --> 01:04:57.092
That's true, you know, you can have as many kids as you want.

01:04:57.092 --> 01:04:58.440
You can have as much family.

01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:16.295
I have a much bigger non-biological family than I do a biological family, and I'm much in many ways closer to my non-biological family, my family of choice, as we call it.

01:05:16.880 --> 01:05:22.931
Yes, your community, right, Like which is what you guys talk about on this podcast, which is community and how important that is.

01:05:22.931 --> 01:05:38.030
And I think as artists, we're often isolated and it's important to maintain some level of like, community, and it's important to have that non-biological family that you can not only lean on but talk to and communicate with.

01:05:38.030 --> 01:05:55.590
And, um, and I think I'm in the middle of all of that process, so it's taking me time to kind of get some distance to actually see that clearly, um, and I'm, and I'm really taking a lot of steps to to feel, uh, comfortable with that decision and and also letting myself be okay with it.

01:05:55.590 --> 01:06:13.012
And I think, by the time that all of this is over and you have time to look back and you see that you lived authentically in the way that you truly wanted to live, that's when you, you, you gain that perspective of, okay, you know, I, I did it correctly because it was who I was.

01:06:14.199 --> 01:06:16.367
Well, and you were called to do this.

01:06:16.367 --> 01:06:23.110
It's just like the creativity flows through you, so does the choice to be a creative.

01:06:23.110 --> 01:06:26.010
I mean you could have chosen something else, but you were called.

01:06:26.010 --> 01:06:36.110
You got a calling to be a creative and you couldn't do anything else but that if you were going to be true to self and be happy and fulfilled.

01:06:36.699 --> 01:06:52.353
Yeah, I tried to fight it, you know, I tried to have the nine to fives, I tried to have the careers I had, I tried to do, you know, all of the different things, to kind of fit in and be, you know, normal, and that that just didn't, it just never fit Right.

01:06:52.353 --> 01:07:14.143
So, and once I stepped out of that and I really became the person, that who I wanted to be, and I was able to express authentically, um, I became, I think, deep down, much happier, even though I was battling all of these other things externally, because, you know, they don't not everybody wants you to live that way, right, they kind of want you to fit into their molds.

01:07:14.143 --> 01:07:18.952
And and once I let go of some of that, then it's like, oh, I can listen to myself.

01:07:20.702 --> 01:07:22.507
And with you being truly happy.

01:07:22.507 --> 01:07:24.132
There's a ripple effect there.

01:07:24.132 --> 01:07:36.661
Every human being that you come in contact with, whether it's via your art or any other way, in that happiness that ripples out to them and then out to the people that they have contact with.

01:07:38.304 --> 01:07:48.623
I believe that and I've seen that over the years and that's what kind of keeps, I think, a lot of artists going is that they see that they have an impact and not that we can even help but create.

01:07:48.623 --> 01:07:53.742
But when it reaches other people and we get to share that, you see that it really does make a difference.

01:07:53.742 --> 01:08:01.463
And that's when you walk away and say, okay, like maybe this is a bigger, bigger, this is bigger than myself.

01:08:01.463 --> 01:08:19.365
And if I continue down this road and I have had that experience that I've actually impacted people in some ways where they have quit their jobs and gone on and created their own businesses or become artists or done whatever it is that their passion is, and they've come back later on and said that one conversation really changed my life.

01:08:19.365 --> 01:08:32.170
And this is what I'm doing now and to have that feedback and get to experience that I lose sight of it sometimes and when I see that I actually made a difference, then it makes it worth it.

01:08:33.783 --> 01:08:38.524
Well, and we don't necessarily need to buy a piece of your art to be impacted by it.

01:08:38.524 --> 01:08:42.172
We saw that guitar one time and we're still talking about it.

01:08:42.172 --> 01:08:44.083
It definitely impacted us.

01:08:44.685 --> 01:09:06.532
Well, that's all I can hope for that's all I can hope for well, as maddox mentioned earlier, we we are running a little long and it's about that time that we draw this to a close, and we like to do that by just asking some lighthearted rapid fire questions.

01:09:06.532 --> 01:09:09.561
Okay, yeah, all right.

01:09:09.561 --> 01:09:19.496
So the first rapid fire question is three words that describe your creative process.

01:09:22.824 --> 01:09:31.828
I would say passion, connection and vulnerability Beautiful.

01:09:35.542 --> 01:09:37.568
What's a dream collaboration?

01:09:37.568 --> 01:09:41.680
Any artists, dead or alive, wow?

01:09:42.443 --> 01:09:56.533
Wow, you know, what's funny is I got to I've already got to do that collaboration with my mentor and I got that true experience and that is something that, um, I'm just unbelievably grateful for.

01:09:56.533 --> 01:10:13.287
But if I had to be somebody outside of that that I've never met, um, my favorite artist is Mark Bradford and, uh, I think I would love to stand with him in his giant studio working on a giant painting and just be part of that process.

01:10:13.287 --> 01:10:15.261
Yeah, I think that'd be my one.

01:10:17.045 --> 01:10:20.792
Have you ever considered like throwing it out there on the table and seeing what happens?

01:10:21.100 --> 01:10:29.753
No, what's funny is I throw a lot of things on the table and so many things have come true, so maybe I should reach out to Mark after this and be like hey next time.

01:10:29.753 --> 01:10:30.377
I'm in LA.

01:10:30.377 --> 01:10:31.359
What have you got?

01:10:31.381 --> 01:10:31.942
to lose.

01:10:32.162 --> 01:10:32.925
What have I got to lose?

01:10:33.386 --> 01:10:44.067
And I've done literally has changed my life, which is why I told you I wrote that letter and I threw that out at midnight and I never expected a response to my mentor.

01:10:44.067 --> 01:10:50.222
And literally that one action, that one thing that I did, I didn't understand at the time.

01:10:50.222 --> 01:10:54.537
And now, if I look back at it, if I didn't do that one thing that night, none of this trajectory would have ever happened.

01:10:54.537 --> 01:10:58.734
And I, if I look back at it, if I didn't do that one thing that night, none of this trajectory would have ever happened and I probably wouldn't be having this conversation with you.

01:10:58.734 --> 01:11:10.440
So if I can say this on the podcast, if there's artists listening, like, do that one thing that you don't want to do or you don't think you should do, or you think it's too much of a shot in the dark.

01:11:10.440 --> 01:11:19.427
If you do it and you do it enough times I just got really lucky on my first one If you do it, I swear your life is going to change.

01:11:20.890 --> 01:11:31.484
Yeah, we've all heard the story about how many people that uh the the Kentucky fried chicken guy had to talk to before somebody finally bought his chicken recipe.

01:11:31.484 --> 01:11:39.578
Yeah, and look how that ended bought his chicken recipe you know and look how that ended.

01:11:45.627 --> 01:11:51.033
My last rapid fire question what's the most unexpected?

01:11:51.052 --> 01:11:51.497
place you've found.

01:11:51.497 --> 01:12:07.403
Inspiration, heartbreak, I think that was the most uh, you know, and I and I really had this, um, this kind of epiphany.

01:12:07.403 --> 01:12:25.393
You know, not that I've not experienced that before, but you know, when I went through this, when I created this last show for Ferrari and I and I put everything of myself into it um, I was left at kind of like, when it all happened, I, it was just so devastating and like I didn't know how I was going to continue or what to do, or nothing seemed meaningful anymore.

01:12:25.393 --> 01:12:54.064
And I think that that's when I allowed myself to just kind of go to the very bottom of like the ocean and sit on the floor right, very bottom of like the ocean, and sit on the floor right, sit there and just really feel everything at my lowest point and let that kind of like shower over me and not run from it and not try to fill it with something that's going to make me feel better, but really to allow myself to feel all of the different emotions.

01:12:54.064 --> 01:13:12.708
And when I did that it took a little bit of time, but when I was able to come back up to the surface and actually start creating and actually started putting myself into it, I realized how important that that kind of complete destruction was and what I was able to pull out of that.

01:13:13.149 --> 01:13:37.190
And when I finished that show, which I was doing things all the way up to like the week before, and I was like I really want to do this thing, I had this one piece, these, these little four pieces that I um, that I made that were I don't know if you saw them in the show, but they were like these glass, broken glass pieces, and I had my photos behind it and I encased it in these acrylic like blocks, basically.

01:13:37.190 --> 01:13:42.601
Well, anyways, I had made some pieces like that and they just weren't coming out well.

01:13:42.601 --> 01:13:51.360
And I was talking to Debra at Ferrari Gallery about it and she was like, well, you know, you've got a lot of work, you don't have to, don't feel like you have to do this.

01:13:51.360 --> 01:13:57.225
And I was like I am determined, this is like the last bit of this feeling that I need to put out there.

01:13:57.985 --> 01:14:19.746
And when I finished them and I got them into the show and I was able to stand back and look at the show in its entirety and all the different mediums and all the different very personal, meaningful things, all of a sudden, you know, I saw myself sitting on that ocean floor and I tied all that together and I said look what heartbreak can actually do for you.01:14:19.746 --> 01:14:30.474


And so don't run from the emotions that you really don't want to look at and you don't want to feel, because that can be really the greatest reward that you'll ever have.01:14:30.474 --> 01:14:46.881


That you'll ever have and I think that's part of this life process is to experience, as a human, the full range of things, and we don't want to go through them, but I think that's what gives us our lives meaning and interest and that's what will produce the greatest work that you'll ever make.01:14:47.983 --> 01:14:49.126


Oh, I fully agree.01:14:49.126 --> 01:14:55.443


And you have just dropped a huge wisdom bomb, just dropped a huge wisdom bomb.01:14:55.443 --> 01:14:56.805


Thanks, I mean for the listener.01:14:56.805 --> 01:15:03.853


I just really encourage you to like punch the you know repeat button, roll it back.01:15:03.853 --> 01:15:06.655


You know two minutes, three minutes and listen to that again.01:15:06.655 --> 01:15:08.878


That was awesome.01:15:09.698 --> 01:15:10.020


Thank you.01:15:10.020 --> 01:15:13.048


Yeah, you guys, let me share that and share all of this today.01:15:13.048 --> 01:15:17.320


It's really meaningful for me, so I do appreciate it.01:15:17.981 --> 01:15:18.243


This.01:15:18.243 --> 01:15:24.253


This has honestly, eric, this conversation has exceeded my expectations.01:15:24.859 --> 01:15:30.400


I'm so happy about that when we, when we take the, take the risks and put it all out there right.01:15:30.400 --> 01:15:34.942


I'm just thankful that you guys are doing this and connecting people and allowing people to tell their stories.01:15:34.942 --> 01:15:35.644


It means a lot.01:15:36.286 --> 01:15:41.311


Well, well, we're really grateful for you being part of it yes, absolutely it was going to be great.01:15:41.332 --> 01:15:45.296


I knew it'd take a long time, but I knew it was going to be great yep us too.