WEBVTT
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Because I don't think anyone would ever look at me and be like, she's autistic.
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I look people in the eye, I'm very social, I'm very capable in social situations.
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Like all of these traditional things that people ascribe to autism, not me.
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Hello and welcome to For the Love of Creatives.
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I am your host, Dwight, joined by Maddox.
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And today we are joined by Lindsay Kirkendahl.
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Lindsay, welcome to the podcast.
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Could you share just a little bit about yourself for listeners?
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Absolutely.
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And I'm super excited to be here.
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So thank you for having me.
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Um we're glad to have you.
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Challenging.
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Well, thank you.
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I'm glad to be here.
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Uh, but these are always challenging questions for me because I tend to be a little long-winded.
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So I'm gonna try to do my best to keep it in a nutshell, and y'all can cut me off or ask a question and feel free to jump in if you need to divert me.
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All right.
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But my my story, if you will, um, I'm originally from Southern California.
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So I grew up very much wanting to be in the entertainment industry.
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I was very drawn to the performing arts, always wanted to be a dancer, et cetera, et cetera.
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Finally convinced my mother to allow me to get an agent when I was about 13.
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So I did some commercial work and started to do some work in film, um, you know, just really scratching the surface.
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I did have some national commercials, which was cool, but nothing significant that you would have heard of.
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Um, but I did a lot of work in that, in that world uh during that time, during high school and then a little bit in college, continued to pursue the arts.
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Um, I was I danced in college, I sang in a vocal jazz ensemble in college, and actually have an award for vocal jazz um solo hanging above.
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Nice.
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Very proud of that.
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But uh I always just was drawn to the entertainment world.
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I was drawn to the performing arts, I loved musical theater, um, wanted to do all of it.
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And got to a point when I was about 21 that I was so burnt out on LA.
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And understanding who I am now, I'm like, oh that I couldn't have articulated why I was burnt out, but I I understand now why I was like, I need to get the hell out of here.
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And I stick I still wanted to be in an entertainment city because I wanted to continue to pursue that professionally, but New York felt like more of the same, and it was colder and it was further away from my family.
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So I picked Nashville and met my husband there.
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I met him six months after I moved.
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He in his own right is a phenomenally brilliant genius, musician, songwriter, producer, all of the things.
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Um, and we have been married almost 20 years.
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It'll be 20 years in May.
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Congratulations.
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Thank you.
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Yeah.
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Um, and so we have kind of built a world together where we have got to continue to pursue a lot of our creative passions, but we also had five years after we married, we had our first son, and then we had another one two years later.
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And so that was for me a big part of what I wanted.
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I was not one of the women that was like career first and then babies.
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I was like, I'm gonna have both and I'm gonna do it great.
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And it was not a one without the other kind of thing.
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So it was a big kind of, again, talking about becoming, I know that's a big theme for you guys now.
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It was a big, ongoing, probably decade plus process for me of doing a lot of internal work around trying to pursue a professional career because I continue to have an agent even in Nashville, and I was acting and modeling and singing and doing background vocal work and I was getting to do a lot of fun things, but had really zero guidance.
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I did not come from a family that understood the arts.
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They were very religious, they didn't want their daughter participating in that industry.
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Um, so I just didn't have a lot of support and I didn't have a lot of guidance.
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I was totally flying solo with all of it and got married very young.
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We got married, I was 22.
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So, you know, when you get married, a lot of things shift and perspective, you know, now we have to pay bills and we have to, you know, do a lot of other adult type things that divert energy from just pursuing the arts and pursuing performing and music and all of these things.
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So, you know, we were trying to still build these creative careers, but also adding more adult responsibilities onto our plate at the same time.
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So my life kind of went like this, and I was serving two masters pretty significantly very early on.
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And I wanted both, but I had to, like I said, I went through this ongoing, you know, decade plus process of really having to reevaluate all of my internal beliefs around what it meant to be a female artist, be a female artist that was a mother, be um a businesswoman, because now I was like, well, I want to be at home with my kids.
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I don't work well in the corporate world.
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Tried that a number of times, not the place for me.
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And I wanted to create a flexible, you know, reality where I could be with kids, still help provide, um, and and have, you know, both of those things.
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And I was, you know, this was all during the era of like 2008 to 2012 when the internet was really, really coming online for particularly for artists, and them starting to understand that they didn't have to go through these gatekeepers anymore to have a career and they could connect with their audience directly.
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And one thing, again, I didn't really understand about myself back then.
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I knew I could do things, but I didn't know why.
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So, like I was very good at being able to read people's unconscious beliefs.
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You know, I was very good at helping people to understand what was happening in the un or subconscious.
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It just was how I'm wired.
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I could see that.
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And so because my husband and I were both working in the music business, um, he was producing full-time at that point.
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We started to get a lot of opportunities or artists asking us to manage them, but we didn't want to manage, but we loved mentorship and we loved educating and we loved guiding.
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So we started a business that was a production and um consulting company.
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So I was really just doing business consulting for artists, helping them understand how to build businesses online and also helping them to reframe what the possibilities were, because that was the part that I like really, really loved.
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And I really loved helping artists.
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Well, let me say it this way.
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What I was noticing in my work with artists is that part of the reason, or I don't know, if I'm being honest, I think like the fundamental reason that they were struggling so much was not for a lack of knowledge or strategy or know-how, but it was because they were still really committed to their career looking the way that the industry had worked for the last hundred years.
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And they were trying to apply that way of doing things to this whole new world.
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And it didn't work.
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And so there was a lot of really just by prop by by virtue of the work that we were doing and trying to help teach them strategy and business strategy, was I got to like really help them see how they were overly focused on this archaic way of doing things and way of doing things that were really disempowering, you know, and didn't place the power solely on their shoulders.
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And and so it was a really beautiful time for me to really understand that like my gift, my value to artists was really more in helping them better understand who they were, help them become, help them have a more connect, uh deeper connection to their artistry, to who they were as artists.
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We talked a little bit before we started recording about how when we're kids, we get asked, well, what do you want to be when you grow up?
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But Maddox, you said it wasn't about the being, it was, it was what how did you phrase that?
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Well, I said, you know, it it's there's a what do you want to be, and there's a who do you want to be?
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One is an external process and one is an internal process.
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Yeah.
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We assume that most of our listeners are already determined that they want to be creative in some shape, form, or fashion.
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So we don't address the what.
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Yeah.
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We we spend our time and energy on the who you want to become in order to be that creative person, that artist, that dancer, that singer, whatever, who is it in here inside of yourself that you have to become?
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Right.
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Yeah.
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And I was finding that helping people discover that was more transformational to their success than teaching them how to do social media strategy correctly.
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Yeah.
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I just want to call that out.
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You were cutting edge.
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Yeah.
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And it was hard.
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It's funny.
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I was having this conversation the other day because I said, you know, it was hard because no one lays in awake in bed at night going, I really need to change my limiting beliefs.
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They go, I really need to have more audience members on my social media, you know.
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Exactly.
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We we focus on the what and forget about the who.
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Yeah.
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Who we need to be in order to get those additional people on our as our followers.
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Right.
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And so it was a really interesting uh marketing path because you like I did feel a little bit like, am I bait and switching these people?
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Because I'm telling them I can help them build their social media, but what they don't realize is I have them start at a more subconscious level first and we work through those pieces first before the strategy even makes sense, or we even know what the strategy is going to be.
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Um, you know, I I had a I had a mentor one time say that whole bait and switch thing.
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I had a mentor one time tell me sometimes you have to give them what they want so you can give them what they need.
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That's really good.
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And it's true.
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It's very true.
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But to tie up all of that, I mean, essentially through the process of getting the opportunity to work with a number of different types of artists and and also at that time raising kids, um, small kids.
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They're 12 and 14 now, but um I, you know, really started to feel passionately about supporting particularly female artists during that season because, you know, there is a difference between what a male artist's path and trajectory looks like versus a female artist's path and trajectory.
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Um, and I'm saying this with the assumption that in general, most females desire to have a family.
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I know it's not true for everybody, but most tend to want to have that be a part of their life experience.
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And we have a lot of different competing things that men don't have to contend with as they're building their career as a creative, one of which is you have to look young and sexy or you're not valuable, right?
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There's a ticking time clock.
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There's also, I think, a more intuitive unconscious awareness that like we want to be good parents.
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And if we are going to choose the path of becoming a mother one day, that we want to have enough time and energy and capacity to do that job well.
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And if we're still trying to get a career off the ground, but our biological clock is ticking, that creates a really weird push-pull that's very, very stressful on women that are trying to both build a career during their fertile years.
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Like it's it's funky.
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So we have these other things that we're dealing with that really there wasn't anyone in the space at that time that was really talking about these things and helping to empower women and help them navigate that push-pull.
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You know, I think it's also important to call out maybe not at every society, but certainly in our society, we still very much live in a man's world.
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Yeah.
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We do the patriarch is alive and well.
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And I wish I could say that that wasn't true because if it was up to me, it wouldn't be.
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I'm very much into equality and equity.
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But it it it is still, you know, when you go in and look at the the wages, men are still across the board pretty much paid better than women are.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, you guys have to live to a whole different set of um standards.
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And not fair, but it but it is what it is.
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But it is what it is, yeah.
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And a lot of that are things that we unconsciously uh understand from a very small age and learn through osmosis, and it's never explicitly said, but we just absorb that, you know, and and try to navigate without a whole lot of people, without a whole lot of guidance, I would say.
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So in about 2018, I really pivoted my practice to focusing primarily on female artists.
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I still did work with men, but it was focused and marketed towards female artists.
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And I did that for, I mean, I still do some of it from time to time.
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Um, I've got artists right now that I'm working with actually, but I did that very full-time for about five years.
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And then now I'm I'm pivoting.
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I did go and in 2022, I actually went through a summer certification course on clinical hypnotherapy because I found it to be really, really transformational in the life of myself and my husband.
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And so I wanted to add that to my practice.
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But at the time, I didn't really know that I was going to be pivoting from doing as much one-to-one client work as I had been.
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So I didn't really get a chance to practice that as much as I was hoping I would, but have decided at the end of last year to um start another certification course in a methodology called Rapid Transformational Therapy.
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And uh it's about an 18-month course where you get like level three certified as a master hypnotherapist.
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So I'm excited about that because it really is kind of like, oh, all of these things that I was seeing in my clients, and I really enjoyed like that deeper psychological subconscious work.
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Now I actually am going to be accredited and certified and be able to support artists with deeper subconscious level work instead of like, hey, it's it's like what you said earlier, Maddox.
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Um, give them what they think they want to give them what they need, you know.
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Um, but now I can just say, hey, like it's the subconscious that's driving everything.
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Everything.
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So I can do that.
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Yeah.
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So um, so yeah.
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And then as it relates to again going back to becoming and a little bit of my story there is I after I pivoted away from serving clients in a really high level one-to-one capacity, I went through a period of burnout in my late 30s and early 40s.
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And I mean, I'm still in my early 40s, but I I was just like, I don't know why I can't seem to energetically get it up to go back and do this work with artists right now.
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I just didn't really know.
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We had our boys were um, we had homeschooled them for the majority of their life.
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And then they did like a couple years in a traditional school, and then we brought them back home last year to homeschool.
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So this is like year two of homeschooling again, round two.
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And, you know, that that is does require some of my presence, but I also felt kind of in this amorphous soup of where am I going next professionally?
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Because I'm a really high-night energy person.
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I love learning and I I want to, you know, use that energy in a way that that helps humanity.
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And I still am so passionate about serving the creative community and um and in turn serving myself because I'm a member of the creative community.
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Um, and so I uh I was like, what next, universe?
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Like where where are we going next?
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Because I don't think I want to go back to what I was doing, but I can't quite put my finger on what the next step is.
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And um, you know, it was like through raising my kids and seeing behaviors in both my kids that that caused my husband and I to scratch our heads a little bit, like, is that autism?
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Is that ADHD?
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But never like when you sit down to read the profile of these like traditional behaviors, um, never really felt like, yeah, they check all the boxes.
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This is a clear, we need to go see someone to get a diagnosis.
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And our kids were functioning and thriving and doing fine.
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But all also there were things where we're like, mm, that's not quite what you would expect to see.
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And it didn't really become very obvious to us until our boys were getting like at middle school age.
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And so I started to research and we had had some evaluation done early on when they were homeschooling, because I it it was recommended to me because I was like, if I continue to homeschool, I just want to know how my kids learn, right?
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So we had a psychoeducational evaluation done and did cognitive skills and things like this.
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And both of them came back in the gifted range from like an IQ screener.
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It wasn't a full-scale IQ test.
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So we're like, well, we knew we were dealing with bright kids and um also like both of our kids had had some like claircognizant moments as children where they knew things that they shouldn't have known or predicted things that that's a whole other bottle of wine.
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But either way, like we knew we were operating with some like really tapped-in children here.
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You know what I'm saying?
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And uh, and so as I researched giftedness, and of course, giftedness is often cousins with neurodivergence or or is considered a form of neurodivergence.
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And one of the things that just kept coming back and back and back is like, well, it's genetic, it travels in families, you see it in families often.
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Um and so again, going through that period of burnout and and observing my kids coming to an age where like some of those differences were becoming more apparent.
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I I was like, oh, you know, like am I maybe on the spectrum?
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Like, am I neurodivergent?
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Uh and all that to say, I for many reasons, which again, I'm for the sake of brevity, told you I was long winded, warned you.
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So you can't be mad.
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But um, but I I came to discovery that like I was like, I am very confident in self diagnosing myself.
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As being on the spectrum.
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And what changed for you?
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Everything.
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Like it was weird because what I was observing in my internal experience was how intensely I, and I assume the mainstream populace really has come to understand autism to look very, very like this very specific thing.
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Because I don't think anyone would ever look at me and be like, she's autistic.
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I look people in the eye.
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I'm very social.
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I'm very capable in social situations.
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Like all of these traditional things that people ascribe to autism.
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Not me.
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Well, you gotta admit that the marketing for uh autism spectrum disorder was pretty powerful.
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I mean, Rain Man was a really popular movie.
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It was absolutely.
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And so that was one of my biggest shocks when I was learning this about myself was of course I never saw myself inside of this because we were only looking at it through this narrow lens of I call it white boy autism because it's like you probably know too, like the studies that were um where the diagnostic criteria was created were done on like upper middle class white boys.
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Yeah.
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And so it's like, well, then it's gonna, you know, my my oldest son, I would say, has traditional white boy autism.
00:21:55.670 --> 00:22:13.830
It's much more obvious for him because he like he likes tornadoes and cars, you know, and he can struggle a little bit with social cues and some social challenges, and he's very monotropic and like it's like very obvious white boy autism to me.
00:22:14.390 --> 00:22:30.790
And so in women, and especially women that find out much later in life, I was 41 when I found out very, very different experience, but also becoming aware of like, oh, all these things that didn't really add up, now it all clicks into place.
00:22:31.029 --> 00:22:46.950
So the thing that really changed for me beyond observing what was happening, like with the collective awareness and how I was never going to understand myself inside of that because we all thought it looked like A, but I'm over here like looking like X or something.
00:22:47.509 --> 00:22:50.630
And and when I realized, okay, that that's interesting.
00:22:50.790 --> 00:22:56.470
But also personally, it was like everything clicked into focus in a way that it never had before.
00:22:56.630 --> 00:23:22.550
The exhaustion, the burnouts, the um the high intensity, like need for lots of like learning and stimulation in that way, certain like internal sensitivities that particularly for women are not obvious because high high masking, you know, again, these are terms that I use just based on what I've researched.
00:23:22.710 --> 00:23:32.070
But um, women that like may have autism but fit in socially and can hide in most scenarios, their experience of their autism is very, very internal.
00:23:32.230 --> 00:23:35.350
So no one really understands or sees it.
00:23:35.670 --> 00:23:49.350
But it just once I understood that about myself, then I started to take that lens into like the world of creatives and the world that I was in and the people that I was serving.
00:23:49.509 --> 00:23:53.350
And I'm like, oh, now I can see it everywhere.
00:23:53.670 --> 00:24:09.910
Well, and and it sounds like you you brought along with you a lot of the things that you had used in working with your clients to get them to excel despite how they had to perform for the male gaze.
00:24:10.310 --> 00:24:11.990
Yeah, absolutely.
00:24:12.470 --> 00:24:31.190
I I can definitely see how the masking uh behavior is going to be very similar to how it is that you need to thread your way in to get time in the right rooms and be taken seriously because you have to pretend to be a character.
00:24:31.590 --> 00:24:31.990
Yeah.
00:24:32.150 --> 00:24:32.470
Yeah.
00:24:32.630 --> 00:24:54.070
And going back to what I said about like, oh, this is why I left LA, was because while I loved performing and I loved acting because it was fun, I I couldn't like, and I've heard this a lot in my research, is just people with um that tend to be on the spectrum, like have very, very what's the word?
00:24:54.150 --> 00:24:57.750
Um, they just authenticity is very, very important to them.
00:24:58.870 --> 00:25:10.150
Not be, and it's why some people that may have higher support needs can come across a little bit cold or overly direct because they just want clarity and they just want truth and authenticity.
00:25:10.230 --> 00:25:11.430
That's really important.
00:25:11.910 --> 00:25:14.870
Because if someone's shifty, it makes you feel unsafe.
00:25:15.110 --> 00:25:15.430
Sure.
00:25:15.670 --> 00:25:19.190
And so they're not gonna be the person that's shifty, you know?
00:25:19.430 --> 00:25:32.790
And so I couldn't, I couldn't really gel in that environment because that's all LA is is shiftiness and people jockeying for position and trying to play a role so they can, you know, and that was just so overwhelming to my nervous system.
00:25:33.670 --> 00:25:35.750
Like a fish out of water, wasn't it?
00:25:36.070 --> 00:25:36.310
Yeah.
00:25:36.390 --> 00:25:50.710
And even though I looked apart, I was a cute blonde girl, I was bubbly, I was, you know, intelligent and all of these things, like I just could, it was exhausting to me and exhausting in a way that I didn't understand at the time.
00:25:50.870 --> 00:25:55.590
But now understanding neurodivergence, I was like, oh, makes total sense.
00:25:55.750 --> 00:26:05.190
And it was beautiful because I think for a long time I had a lot of shame that I didn't have the stamina or the willpower or the drive, even though I'm an incredibly determined and driven person.
00:26:05.350 --> 00:26:08.310
Everybody who knows me would characterize me that way.
00:26:08.550 --> 00:26:12.630
But I was like, well, I must not be driven enough because I wasn't able to hack it.
00:26:12.790 --> 00:26:14.390
I wasn't able to stick it out.
00:26:14.630 --> 00:26:15.590
I left.
00:26:15.990 --> 00:26:26.070
And now it's like, no, I was way too, and I use this term not in a bad way because I don't perceive it in a negative light, but I was way too sensitive for that bullshit.
00:26:26.390 --> 00:26:29.670
Like and I had a higher standard, right?
00:26:29.750 --> 00:26:33.430
And I do think a lot of that is part of my neurodivergence.
00:26:34.630 --> 00:26:40.310
Lindsay, you you have been involved in the creative world for way, way, way longer than we have.
00:26:40.550 --> 00:26:50.790
You know, we kind of stumbled into creatives when we hosted, co-hosted an event two and a half years ago with some artists, and it was all creatives that showed up for this event.
00:26:51.029 --> 00:26:56.230
And we had this awareness that, oh my God, I we just found our people.
00:26:56.390 --> 00:26:57.830
We just felt right at home.
00:26:58.070 --> 00:27:03.029
And so most of our focus since then, most all of our focus, has been on creatives.
00:27:03.190 --> 00:27:15.029
We've hosted events, we started this podcast, but we have about two and a half years worth of experience in the in the creatives world, even though we've both been creative all of our lives.
00:27:15.269 --> 00:27:19.269
Being in the creative community is a different different thing.
00:27:19.430 --> 00:27:19.590
Right.
00:27:19.910 --> 00:27:25.910
You, on the other hand, have been involved a lot longer, so you have a much broader perspective.
00:27:26.630 --> 00:27:43.430
If you, I mean, perhaps there's studies that you're aware of, but what if you had to guess, what percentage of the creative's population do you think might be affected by some form of divergence or neurodivergence or or something that's associated with that?
00:27:43.590 --> 00:27:45.029
Because I know there's different things.
00:27:45.110 --> 00:27:54.790
Like, I don't, I'm not smart enough about this topic to know is ADHD, those initials always trip me up a little bit.
00:27:54.950 --> 00:27:58.870
Is that under the umbrella of neurodivergence or is that something completely separate?
00:27:59.269 --> 00:28:01.190
No, it's it's under the umbrella.
00:28:01.430 --> 00:28:07.430
Um, there's a lot of conversation because this is a developing area of research, right?
00:28:07.509 --> 00:28:09.110
Like there's it's still so new.
00:28:09.190 --> 00:28:11.269
There's so much that we're we're learning.
00:28:11.590 --> 00:28:24.550
And I've heard a lot of researchers say ADHD autism, like, you know, as long as there's not an intellectual disability also present, it's like, you know, it's both sides of the same coin in some respects.
00:28:24.710 --> 00:28:32.230
So there's even some conversation of like, you know, which really where's one end and where's the other begin?
00:28:32.470 --> 00:28:52.390
I do know, and you guys may have heard this statistic, but I do know that the people that are like at the front lines researching this, they say that they believe that at least, I'm probably gonna botch this, but it's something along the lines of at least 50% of all of the people who are neurodivergent are not actually diagnosed.
00:28:52.470 --> 00:28:53.350
They don't know.
00:28:53.590 --> 00:29:08.230
Now, I'm not really sure how they came to that conclusion, but you know, because I am someone who can dive really deep on a subject and consume a lot of information on it rapidly, I do feel like I become a lay expert on a lot of random topics.
00:29:08.310 --> 00:29:14.790
And this was one because it concerned my children, and then, you know, for myself and then also for my husband, too.
00:29:14.950 --> 00:29:19.830
Um, we're like, oh, all four of us are really neurodivergent and like had no idea.
00:29:19.910 --> 00:29:27.350
And also no wonder there have been these things that we've struggled with for, you know, our whole adult lives.
00:29:27.590 --> 00:29:39.269
Um and I've just kind of felt like as I've better understood what it looks like, particularly in people who don't also have an intellectual disability.
00:29:39.430 --> 00:29:45.509
I'm like, I think the vast majority of the population, creatives or not, are probably neurodivergent on some level.
00:29:45.670 --> 00:29:46.790
I truly believe it.
00:29:46.950 --> 00:29:48.710
Because you think about it like this.
00:29:49.029 --> 00:29:53.830
This was something, if you've ever seen the movie Temple, have you guys seen that about Temple Grandin?
00:29:54.470 --> 00:29:55.990
That's a you've seen it.
00:29:56.230 --> 00:29:57.910
Oh, yes, yes, I have.
00:29:58.230 --> 00:29:58.870
It's so good.
00:29:58.950 --> 00:30:02.630
And Claire Danes is amazing in that role.
00:30:02.870 --> 00:30:12.150
But you know, I watch a movie and then I'm like Wikipediaing on the side and like, you know, reading about other things that they don't maybe explore heavily in the movie.
00:30:12.230 --> 00:30:23.430
And so I was looking at some articles and they've done brain scans on Temple's brain, and it shows how there's asymmetry in her brain, and one part of one lobe is quite a bit larger than another lobe.
00:30:23.590 --> 00:30:36.070
And I'm like, okay, well, you know, we haven't been doing brain scans on people, like the way we do x-rays on kids, the way we do ultrasounds on almost every pregnant woman that ever exists, right?
00:30:36.630 --> 00:30:43.509
But we can on the external observe that no one's physical external appearance is symmetrical.
00:30:43.750 --> 00:30:44.390
No one.
00:30:45.269 --> 00:30:49.430
We all have asymmetry on our external bodies.
00:30:49.670 --> 00:30:54.230
So stands to reason that we probably have asymmetry in our brains too.
00:30:54.390 --> 00:31:02.470
Now, to what degree, we don't really know unless we do a brain scan, but those are expensive and they're not mainstream, and we haven't decided collectively that that's a thing we do.
00:31:03.029 --> 00:31:07.990
So, to your question, I think a lot of creatives are probably neurodivergent.
00:31:08.150 --> 00:31:11.509
And I think probably the majority of the population is to some degree.
00:31:11.670 --> 00:31:13.269
And I have to wonder.
00:31:13.990 --> 00:31:14.710
Sorry, go ahead.
00:31:15.190 --> 00:31:15.990
No, go ahead, finish.
00:31:16.230 --> 00:31:22.630
I was just saying I'm using that like with my understanding, when I say neurodivergence, I mean brain asymmetry.
00:31:23.910 --> 00:31:31.910
I I have to wonder if there is something about the act of creation that attracts neurodivergence.
00:31:33.750 --> 00:31:39.910
Perhaps because you know, we've interviewed between 50 and 60, not interviewed, I hate that word.
00:31:39.990 --> 00:31:57.590
We've had conversations for the podcast with between 50 and 60 people, and there have been like many of them that have told stories, described traits within themselves that look like they fell into that category.
00:31:57.750 --> 00:32:13.590
It's a number the number of people that have said, oh, I'm dyslexic, or I'm I I'm ADHD, or um, you know, I've I've a learning disability or something like this, it's been, wouldn't you say, Dwight, it's been pretty almost common.
00:32:13.750 --> 00:32:30.870
Not not everybody, but and I and I would say that the idea that we have of there being uh some neurotypical uh path that we can have in the human experience is probably a rare thing indeed.
00:32:31.190 --> 00:32:39.190
It's just that the culture enforces that this is what the majority of the the mainstream should be experiencing.
00:32:39.830 --> 00:32:41.750
Yeah, uh absolutely.
00:32:41.910 --> 00:33:10.470
I think creativity is something that uh well, I think neurodivergent neurodivergent people are drawn to creativity because their brain is already wired to see beauty, to experience beauty, to feel beauty, to resonate with art in a way that someone who is maybe more neurotypical looking may not notice, right?
00:33:10.550 --> 00:33:13.990
It just doesn't come into their system in the same way.
00:33:14.390 --> 00:33:21.350
Um so I don't that's not exactly what you asked, but that's one of the thoughts I've had as it relates to creatives.
00:33:21.509 --> 00:33:45.509
I think it's just we have, we tend to have a um, you know what would be really interesting is to take brain scans on creatives and see if there are certain parts of the brain that are more, you know, neurons firing or whatever, or maybe bigger or whatever, if those brains all looked relatively similar because they're people that are drawn to beauty, drawn to expression.
00:33:45.830 --> 00:33:54.630
Um, and is it because of a an actual like asymmetry in the brain or a different, you know, physiology in the brain?
00:33:55.110 --> 00:33:58.710
Yeah, I think that would be fascinating, absolutely fascinating.
00:33:58.950 --> 00:34:07.910
I'd kind of like to jump forward a little bit and hear about you you've described your entire family as being neurodivergent.
00:34:07.990 --> 00:34:08.150
Yeah.
00:34:08.389 --> 00:34:16.150
And and so you talked about it made life make more sense when you understood those things about yourself.
00:34:16.389 --> 00:34:24.550
And I'm assuming that it also gave you clues into how you could more effectively navigate life from that place.
00:34:25.269 --> 00:34:27.029
Can we talk about that a little bit?
00:34:27.190 --> 00:34:51.109
Because I want to give it, I mean, if indeed creatives are are, you know, neurodivergents are drawn to creativity and a big portion of our listeners are affected by this, I want to give them something that they can walk away with, you know, even if it's just examples in your own life and your family's life, about how you have learned to navigate some of the challenging aspects of that.
00:34:51.349 --> 00:35:00.629
Because I know that there is that gifted thing, you know, you're not gonna probably meet a neurodivergent that doesn't have some friggin' superpowers.
00:35:00.949 --> 00:35:01.670
Absolutely.
00:35:01.909 --> 00:35:07.989
You know, and and then there's the other angle, the parts of it that make their life kind of challenging.
00:35:08.149 --> 00:35:15.670
They they process information differently, they process feelings differently, or I should say maybe we, because I'm I've not been tested.
00:35:15.829 --> 00:35:18.069
I'm not so sure I'm not part of that group myself.
00:35:18.230 --> 00:35:20.069
I wouldn't be a bit surprised.
00:35:20.549 --> 00:35:29.750
Um let's let's go into that vein and share, share what you have because you you are so knowledgeable about this and have put so much time and energy.
00:35:29.909 --> 00:35:32.389
I know you have some great things to share.
00:35:32.789 --> 00:35:44.069
I think for me, the most fundamental piece, again, going back to our subconscious mind and the beliefs that we hold, is that I I don't see it as a disorder.
00:35:44.309 --> 00:35:51.509
I don't see it as a problem, I don't see it as something that is um pathological.
00:35:52.469 --> 00:35:55.670
I've never experienced those things.
00:35:55.750 --> 00:36:02.869
Now I can understand that yes, I actually have um my stepsister has a daughter who has a very, very high support needs autistic child.
00:36:02.949 --> 00:36:10.469
And there are some intellectual disabilities there, but also there was an intense amount of trauma that that brain developed in, right?
00:36:10.549 --> 00:36:20.069
So there's, and I've heard that too, is like, is this actually autism or is this a brain, an autistic brain that's experienced trauma?
00:36:20.309 --> 00:36:22.789
You know, some of these like diagnostic criteria.
00:36:23.029 --> 00:36:31.429
So for me, um, because I I kind of tend to believe that the majority of the population probably is neurodivergent to some degree.
00:36:31.670 --> 00:36:41.109
Um, I also think that it can't be pathological, then can't be a disorder, can't be something that's bad, it's just different.
00:36:41.909 --> 00:36:42.469
Or is it?
00:36:42.549 --> 00:36:44.710
And maybe it's actually very not different.
00:36:44.949 --> 00:36:54.230
So I think the fact that I see it in that way really shapes how I interact with the parts of it that are challenging.
00:36:54.549 --> 00:36:57.429
Um, I don't have a lot of shame around it.
00:36:57.589 --> 00:37:04.309
I don't have a lot of, um, I'm just like, yeah, this is how this is how I operate.
00:37:04.469 --> 00:37:12.789
Um, I know one really good example was when I mean the whole, again, been married almost 20 years, right?
00:37:12.869 --> 00:37:16.230
So we've we've been through the gamut of things with each other.
00:37:16.549 --> 00:37:22.549
And my husband is this absolutely genius, prolific musician and songwriter.
00:37:22.629 --> 00:37:25.909
He can sit down and like literally write 50 songs in a week.
00:37:26.069 --> 00:37:28.949
I mean, it's insane what he's able to produce.
00:37:29.190 --> 00:37:39.909
But he'll get into the kitchen and he's so focused and task-oriented on eating that he won't see that he's left the kitchen not put away.
00:37:40.069 --> 00:37:44.789
Like once the task is done and he's fed himself, the task is done, you know.
00:37:45.190 --> 00:37:59.429
And because we've always worked from home, or at least majority of our marriage, we've we've worked from home and we've homeschooled, there's a lot of upkeep that we all have to participate in to keep the house in order, particularly for me, because I'm easily visually overwhelmed.
00:37:59.509 --> 00:38:01.029
I'm a very visual processor.
00:38:01.190 --> 00:38:04.230
If there's visual clutter, I my brain literally shuts off.
00:38:04.629 --> 00:38:07.750
Um, and that's hard when you have to work from home.
00:38:07.909 --> 00:38:14.629
So when I've got someone who's like leaving stuff out, and I keep asking, like, hey, can you pick up after yourself?
00:38:14.789 --> 00:38:15.589
Like, uh-huh.
00:38:16.069 --> 00:38:26.309
Um, and it doesn't happen, like that was causing a lot of issues in our marriage because again, I didn't know of my neurodivergence, I didn't understand my visual overstimulation.
00:38:26.710 --> 00:38:32.149
And I started to take it personally, like, this mofo doesn't give a shit about me.
00:38:32.309 --> 00:38:36.469
I've asked him multiple times, then it becomes an issue in the marriage.
00:38:36.869 --> 00:38:43.349
And when I realized it was an ADHD trait, I was like, oh, his brain literally doesn't see it.
00:38:43.750 --> 00:38:54.949
And when he could also not feel shame about his wife constantly nagging him, and he was like, uh, it's just the ADHD, you know, or whatever, like whatever it is.
00:38:55.190 --> 00:38:58.549
Um, it's just like, okay, now we can better support each other.
00:38:58.710 --> 00:39:09.589
Now we can actually have quality conversations about what's going on, and we're not attributing, you know, untruths to each other and having these issues.
00:39:09.909 --> 00:39:14.149
So you're you're said you've said a couple of things that I kind of want to recap for our listeners.
00:39:14.549 --> 00:39:26.149
Number one, not that you didn't say these words, but what I heard you say is there was power in owning that you're neurodivergent and accepting it and normalizing it.
00:39:26.469 --> 00:39:28.869
There was power in owning it.
00:39:29.109 --> 00:39:36.629
The second thing I'm hearing is because you live in a family of neurodivergents, it's not about learning to navigate your own neurodivergence.
00:39:36.869 --> 00:39:47.029
It is that, but it is additionally learning how to navigate the neurodivergent traits of each individual family member because each of you are an individual and you show up differently.
00:39:47.349 --> 00:39:49.269
Can I add something brief to that?
00:39:49.509 --> 00:39:50.309
Please.
00:39:50.629 --> 00:39:58.710
This was a really healing moment for me because my whole life I grew up feeling like my dad was very emotionally neglectful and unavailable.
00:39:59.109 --> 00:40:05.190
And my oldest son is a lot like my father, like very, very, very similar.
00:40:05.429 --> 00:40:07.589
And they don't, my dad lives in California.
00:40:07.750 --> 00:40:10.629
My son was raised in Nashville and then Florida.
00:40:10.789 --> 00:40:14.789
So they've seen each other maybe once a year, his whole 14 years.
00:40:15.029 --> 00:40:21.109
Not enough to for him to learn behaviors because he was around the guy, but he is so much like my dad.
00:40:21.509 --> 00:40:28.869
And once I realized the genetic, you know, components and like, oh, this is probably passed down.
00:40:28.949 --> 00:40:30.309
And I it all clicked in.
00:40:30.549 --> 00:40:33.509
I was like, oh my gosh, my dad has autism.
00:40:33.989 --> 00:40:37.670
Brilliant guy, high IQ, autistic as hell.
00:40:37.989 --> 00:40:40.309
And he has a lot of alexithymia.
00:40:40.389 --> 00:40:43.109
Like he just doesn't experience emotion the same way.
00:40:43.269 --> 00:40:46.629
And it wasn't because he was an asshole.
00:40:47.109 --> 00:40:49.750
I was like, it's just him.
00:40:49.909 --> 00:40:51.589
It's just, he just has autism.
00:40:51.750 --> 00:40:54.869
And he does love me and he does the best that he can.
00:40:55.429 --> 00:40:58.629
But he has, I mean, he's turning 76 tomorrow.
00:40:58.789 --> 00:41:09.670
He's 76-year-old man that's never even given the opportunity to consider that he might be neurodivergent and also very, very highly brilliant.
00:41:09.909 --> 00:41:16.789
But like the whole conversation of alexithymia and like not really having that emotional depth.
00:41:16.949 --> 00:41:22.789
Um, that overshadowed our relationship my entire life up until the last year.
00:41:23.109 --> 00:41:35.989
And even though I had forgiven him and made peace with that and really had done a lot of healing in our relationship, something about understanding the neurodivergent piece snapped it into view for me in a way that was like, oh, bless his heart.
00:41:36.149 --> 00:41:42.549
Like now I have even more compassion for the guy because just doing he's just doing his thing, you know?
00:41:42.789 --> 00:41:44.789
Like it just doesn't occur to him to call me.
00:41:44.869 --> 00:41:46.149
It's not because he doesn't love me.
00:41:46.389 --> 00:41:46.549
Yeah.
00:41:47.029 --> 00:41:48.309
What a gift for both of you.
00:41:48.549 --> 00:41:49.109
Yeah.
00:41:49.429 --> 00:42:04.869
So to your point, it really is like not just managing the inner immediate family, but like even the experiences of you know, trauma, I guess we would call it like a low-key trauma that I've carried my whole life.
00:42:04.949 --> 00:42:14.069
And I'm just like, oh, how different would it have been if we had just known like dad's dad has autism and he's just not always this like bubbly.
00:42:14.469 --> 00:42:15.589
That's just who he is.
00:42:15.909 --> 00:42:28.149
Then I would have had a much more um rounded, grounded understanding, you know, as a child of how how we fit together as a parent-child team.
00:42:28.469 --> 00:42:32.629
You know, it it really is important to normalize this topic.
00:42:33.509 --> 00:42:39.029
I mean, there's many topics in the world that we need to normalize, but this is definitely things that we just don't talk about.
00:42:39.190 --> 00:42:40.389
We we avoid this topic.
00:42:40.469 --> 00:42:44.869
We avoid talking about death or or sex or shame.
00:42:45.029 --> 00:42:52.789
We just there's a whole bunch of things we avoid, but this is one that would behoove us to to normalize in whatever way we can.
00:42:52.869 --> 00:42:57.109
And it sounds like you have done that in your life and in your family.
00:42:58.230 --> 00:43:01.269
And it's made all it's made a world of difference, hasn't it?
00:43:01.589 --> 00:43:02.230
Yeah.
00:43:02.549 --> 00:43:04.230
I I I love it.
00:43:04.389 --> 00:43:15.750
I mean, I think even just observing differences, and my my oldest son has a dear friend who has autism, and he's got a pair of twin sisters who also have autism.
00:43:16.230 --> 00:43:20.309
And his parents are a little bit older than my husband and I.
00:43:20.469 --> 00:43:31.190
So just generationally, a little bit more probably of the generation where autism was a problem, you know, and it was it was spectrum disorder.
00:43:31.269 --> 00:43:36.710
It wasn't like, hey, we're neurodivergent, you know, which is kind of, I feel like how things are starting to shift.
00:43:36.869 --> 00:43:51.589
And so I can tell, even in just the way that like my son's friend and his sisters show up with this felt shame because of how the parents, you know, you get a diagnosis and the parents, oh no, my kid, there's something wrong with my kid.
00:43:51.829 --> 00:43:56.069
And the kids feel that, you know, they they receive that.
00:43:56.389 --> 00:43:59.670
And uh, and I I just I'm like, man.
00:43:59.829 --> 00:44:07.989
And then I see my son who's like, I'm here, wanna be my friend, you know, or like, and he doesn't, it's not even a thing.
00:44:08.230 --> 00:44:12.149
We do have to be like, hey, like you're a neurodivergent buddy.
00:44:12.230 --> 00:44:17.989
So like these things might be a little more challenging, but like that's it's not a big deal because everyone has got something.
00:44:18.629 --> 00:44:19.029
Right.
00:44:19.190 --> 00:44:22.469
And um, and not using terms like disorder and things like that.
00:44:22.549 --> 00:44:23.829
I just I don't I don't get it.
00:44:24.069 --> 00:44:34.549
It's just I think we've been duped collectively by God love them, the medical establishment, trying to do their best, but mm-mm, not having it.
00:44:35.109 --> 00:44:43.509
I I think it's also important to spend some time focusing on the superpowers that come along with neurodivergence.
00:44:43.670 --> 00:44:43.989
Absolutely.
00:44:44.230 --> 00:44:50.869
Because I have yet to meet a neurodivergent that did not have some kind of amazing superpower.
00:44:51.190 --> 00:45:08.710
And most of all the ones that I've met have just this genuinely gentle, kind soul, just just so um naturally loving, like it's effortless, and very trusting.
00:45:09.750 --> 00:45:11.349
Very, very trusting.
00:45:11.670 --> 00:45:13.190
But I totally agree with you.
00:45:13.349 --> 00:45:18.309
I mean, I think that you hear this a lot, particularly in parent advocacy groups.
00:45:18.389 --> 00:45:21.269
They're like, why are we focusing on what my child can't do?
00:45:21.509 --> 00:45:23.829
Why aren't we focusing on what they can?
00:45:24.309 --> 00:45:24.789
Yes.
00:45:25.029 --> 00:45:28.949
You know, but our our educational systems aren't set up that way.
00:45:29.269 --> 00:45:37.429
So, you know, but I I love the fact that there are more conversations like this happening because, you know, more people have to.
00:45:38.309 --> 00:45:39.989
This sounds wow, this sounds arrogant.
00:45:40.069 --> 00:45:43.349
I was gonna say more people have to be in the place that I'm at with it.
00:45:44.230 --> 00:45:45.429
That didn't come out right.
00:45:45.589 --> 00:45:52.710
But I I I hope more people can not have shame around it and champion it and not see it as some sort of problem.
00:45:53.349 --> 00:45:59.109
Because the more people that can, then that starts to push back against the systems and they start to change.
00:45:59.509 --> 00:46:05.589
So let's let's back up for a minute and apply everything you've shared with this whole concept of becoming.
00:46:06.069 --> 00:46:16.309
You have become a person who has accepted, you have become aware of your own and your family's neurodivergence.
00:46:16.869 --> 00:46:19.989
You have become a person who has normalized it.
00:46:20.230 --> 00:46:20.629
Yep.
00:46:20.869 --> 00:46:22.949
You have embraced it, you have owned it.
00:46:23.029 --> 00:46:25.109
There's a lot of pieces of becoming.
00:46:25.509 --> 00:46:26.309
Do you have anything?
00:46:26.389 --> 00:46:43.589
What I've I've summarized, but do you have anything that you want to add to the list of things that you've become in this process of moving gracefully into just being the neurodivergent that you are?
00:46:44.869 --> 00:46:48.949
I um I said this at the beginning of our conversation.
00:46:49.190 --> 00:46:51.909
It just feels like coming home to yourself.
00:46:52.949 --> 00:47:07.029
It just feels like I've been, and not to say that I haven't had a good life and had many amazing experiences, even if I was operating a little bit like outside of my most authentic self.
00:47:07.589 --> 00:47:24.149
But there's a level of peace and self-satisfaction that exists when you do come home, you know, there it's just like, oh, I can understand now why things in the past haven't worked out.
00:47:24.230 --> 00:47:26.869
It's having a conversation with a neighbor this morning.
00:47:27.029 --> 00:47:34.149
And, you know, there are a number of, we live in a very different neighborhood than when we lived in a very, very creative neighborhood in Nashville.
00:47:34.230 --> 00:47:40.389
We're in a very traditional neighborhood in Florida now, and we're not really around our people.
00:47:40.949 --> 00:47:47.109
And I was mentioning to my husband right before we got on this conversation, I was saying, you know, it's funny, we came down here so excited.
00:47:47.190 --> 00:47:56.629
Like this was the first time we were living in like a neighborhood with a lot of kids, and we were gonna make friends because, you know, we have a wonderful group of friends in Nashville.
00:47:56.789 --> 00:48:01.909
But sometimes when you live in entertainment hubs, there's always this undercurrent of like competition.
00:48:02.069 --> 00:48:06.230
And that can be a little specially again to a neurodivergent uh system.
00:48:06.629 --> 00:48:08.469
That can be very exhausting.
00:48:08.710 --> 00:48:12.469
It's one of the reasons we left and and wanted to try Florida for a little while.
00:48:12.710 --> 00:48:14.469
But now we're not around our people.
00:48:14.949 --> 00:48:16.869
So it's like this push-pull.
00:48:17.190 --> 00:48:31.429
But so I was saying, you know, we were really excited to make all these new friends and and we did, and and as quickly as we did, we we repelled some people, and people were repelled by a like, you know, it wasn't like this explosive thing.
00:48:31.589 --> 00:48:38.069
It was just like, eh, I can't go deep with them, or we just don't click, or whatever it is.
00:48:38.710 --> 00:48:49.349
And it just is tough, but at the same time, the understanding the neurodivergence piece, becoming someone who is very at home with themselves.
00:48:49.909 --> 00:48:59.909
I'm also okay with being like, I'm not for everybody, and and not, and again, this comes across sounding arrogant, but like I am a very, very deep person.
00:49:00.549 --> 00:49:05.589
And so most people can't meet me there, and that's okay, you know?
00:49:05.750 --> 00:49:06.549
Yeah, you get it.
00:49:06.629 --> 00:49:06.949
You get it.
00:49:07.269 --> 00:49:08.230
I get it completely, man.
00:49:08.869 --> 00:49:17.429
And so when I and my husband, he's a musician and he, you know, he likes tennis and he'll watch football games and stuff, but like he's like, What am I gonna talk to these guys about?
00:49:17.589 --> 00:49:33.989
I don't follow sports, you know, and so when that's kind of the typical world you find yourself in, which a lot of neurodivergent people that are a lot like particularly creative neurodivergent people, they're like, uh I've lived in that world my whole life.
00:49:34.149 --> 00:49:43.750
Yeah, and and being being a gay male in the gay male community, it it has been I have been on the outside looking in my whole life.
00:49:43.829 --> 00:49:51.429
I I have found few people that would get into those deeper and meaningful conversations.
00:49:51.670 --> 00:49:52.629
Few, few, few.
00:49:52.789 --> 00:49:57.989
Over a I I I came out 46 years ago, long time.
00:49:58.949 --> 00:50:01.269
Well, and the truck is normal.
00:50:01.670 --> 00:50:03.269
Just adjusting the frame.
00:50:03.670 --> 00:50:04.469
Absolutely.
00:50:04.710 --> 00:50:13.029
I mean, it it makes all of those exchanges that you can have that's that dip below the surface that much more precious.
00:50:13.429 --> 00:50:17.750
Yeah, and and it's it's statistically more challenging.
00:50:17.829 --> 00:50:24.149
We were having this conversation, my oldest son, because we're waiting, you know, in the state of Florida, they have some amazing scholarships.
00:50:24.230 --> 00:50:33.750
And if you can prove that you have unique abilities, then you get like 10 grand a year from the government to homeschool or private school or whatever you need to support your education.
00:50:33.909 --> 00:50:36.869
So we're in the process of getting him full-scale IQ and all the things.
00:50:36.949 --> 00:50:41.029
So we can show the government, like, hey, give us 10 grand.
00:50:42.389 --> 00:50:52.069
And um, and so we were talking to him because you know, he doesn't really have a lot of friends, but he also is very self-satisfied and doesn't seek a lot of social stimulation right now.
00:50:52.149 --> 00:50:56.469
But my husband and I are very social people, so it's a little bit like, oh, like, do we worry?
00:50:56.710 --> 00:50:57.029
Right.
00:50:57.509 --> 00:51:11.269
But then we were saying, you know, if you look at like where his IQ is, compared to the percentage of the population who also is in that same range, there's only nine percent of the population that are, you know, at that place, right?
00:51:11.349 --> 00:51:20.549
Like, so it is statistically gonna be more challenging for people that are, you know, neurodivergent to find their people.
00:51:21.670 --> 00:51:26.949
Um, so you know, that that is another piece of the puzzle where it's like, oh, okay, it's okay.
00:51:27.109 --> 00:51:30.789
Like it's just a statistics problem, it's not a me problem.
00:51:31.989 --> 00:51:38.869
So, Lindsay, for the listener that may be now questioning themselves and wondering, could this be me?
00:51:39.029 --> 00:51:53.349
You know, if if they're listening to all of our conversation and realizing that they have some perhaps some traits that fall within everything we've discussed, would you recommend that they get tested?
00:51:53.989 --> 00:51:56.710
I think that's probably a personal choice.
00:51:57.029 --> 00:52:04.069
I went through a battery of online, and I we had talked about me giving you the links so you guys can put that in the show notes.
00:52:04.230 --> 00:52:07.029
So I'll make sure you guys get the links to all the online tests.
00:52:07.109 --> 00:52:16.789
But there are a number of really, really well um researched and and well recommended from people that are more expert in this field, far more expert in this field than I am.
00:52:17.029 --> 00:52:22.389
But I did like 10 or 15 different online um self-assessments.
00:52:22.629 --> 00:52:24.069
Self-assessments.
00:52:24.389 --> 00:52:26.149
And it gives you a range.
00:52:26.230 --> 00:52:38.629
And then there's a number of them that say, okay, well, you've fallen within your score is 68, and people that usually fall within 60 and 70 or whatever are 80% chance of getting diagnosed with autism.
00:52:38.710 --> 00:52:39.269
You know what I mean?
00:52:39.349 --> 00:52:43.589
So some of them have some statistical reference data, which is kind of nice.
00:52:43.829 --> 00:52:46.549
But for me, I personally don't need it.
00:52:46.710 --> 00:52:52.710
I don't work in the corporate world where I need accommodations, um, you know, or anything like that.
00:52:52.949 --> 00:52:55.509
So I think it's a personal decision.
00:52:55.750 --> 00:53:10.309
Everybody is very, very different, but I do know, particularly for people who are late diagnosed and coming to an understanding of their neurodivergence later in life, the the neurodivergent community is very accepting of self-diagnosis.
00:53:11.670 --> 00:53:14.309
Well, that's that'll be a valuable resource.
00:53:14.469 --> 00:53:17.589
I know that our our time is drawing to a close.
00:53:17.909 --> 00:53:25.109
Um is there anything that you'd like to share with our listeners that we haven't had a chance to get around to?
00:53:25.829 --> 00:53:27.269
Oh, well, that's a good question.
00:53:27.429 --> 00:53:29.589
I feel like we covered a lot of ground.
00:53:29.909 --> 00:53:30.549
We did.
00:53:30.789 --> 00:53:31.269
Yeah.
00:53:31.509 --> 00:53:33.349
This was absolutely amazing.
00:53:33.670 --> 00:53:34.869
Yeah, it was.
00:53:35.109 --> 00:53:37.750
I'm really excited to be having this conversation with you guys.
00:53:38.069 --> 00:53:54.149
I I hope my my genuine hope is that this con this one conversation um opens doors for many listeners, that they saw or heard something that sparked them, gave them some insight into themselves.
00:53:54.469 --> 00:54:04.949
Um, and hopefully, people can find their way to that place of accepting, owning, and learning to navigate more effectively.
00:54:05.269 --> 00:54:07.429
Yeah, that would be my hope too.
00:54:07.589 --> 00:54:10.389
I think I guess that spawned a thought.
00:54:10.469 --> 00:54:11.909
So I will I will leave this one.
00:54:11.989 --> 00:54:30.869
But I think the reason why we have so much shame and so much self-loathing and so much, you know, dealing with like internal stuff that just doesn't feel good is because we're all operating in a system where we're trying to compare ourselves to what, and you know, Dwight, you've said this really well multiple times.
00:54:31.109 --> 00:54:38.710
It's a cultural expectation that really is not relevant to anyone, especially in this day and age.
00:54:38.789 --> 00:54:47.829
And so we've all lived under this for so long that like collectively we just believe, well, this is the highest and best, is all these systems that we've built.
00:54:47.989 --> 00:55:01.429
And so if we don't fit in those systems, there's something wrong with us rather than the system is kind of effed or maybe totally effed, um, because it's not serving humanity, it's serving a very, very narrow aim.00:55:01.829 --> 00:55:04.389
Uh so that I would support that statement.00:55:04.629 --> 00:55:08.869
Yeah, I think that's what I would want to leave people with.00:55:09.269 --> 00:55:20.710
You know, I I grew I grew up in in a school system in the 60s and 70s that did not support my primary way of of learning.00:55:20.949 --> 00:55:21.349
Oh, okay.00:55:21.589 --> 00:55:23.509
It was and it was very difficult.00:55:24.230 --> 00:55:25.429
Very difficult.00:55:25.909 --> 00:55:30.389
I'm surprised that I even did as well as I did, and I was a C student at best.00:55:30.710 --> 00:55:31.349
Yeah.00:55:31.829 --> 00:55:32.469
Yeah.00:55:32.789 --> 00:55:37.829
And and you probably that probably informed your sense of self for a long, long time.00:55:38.230 --> 00:55:38.869
It did.00:55:39.109 --> 00:55:43.670
And I I've never had an IQ test, but I'm I'm quite intelligent.00:55:43.829 --> 00:55:45.509
I nobody needs to tell me that.00:55:45.670 --> 00:55:46.949
I'm quite intelligent.00:55:47.190 --> 00:55:52.069
And that I I can appreciate that because it is a weird inner tension when you go through.00:55:52.309 --> 00:55:53.029
I was the same way.00:55:53.109 --> 00:55:58.069
I found my call it or my high school transcripts, and I was like, huh, I did better than this in high school.00:55:58.309 --> 00:56:06.230
And and yet I was like in these AP classes, like really working hard for my C, but then also going, but I'm smarter than these kids.00:56:06.309 --> 00:56:07.349
I don't get it.00:56:07.829 --> 00:56:17.829
And then there's this weird internal dissonance because you're like, not adding up, but everyone says this is the measure of my intelligence, right?00:56:18.309 --> 00:56:20.230
Yeah, it's like you said, it's F'd.00:56:20.549 --> 00:56:21.909
It's totally effed.00:56:23.269 --> 00:56:26.789
And on that note, Lindsay, thank you.00:56:26.949 --> 00:56:28.389
Thank you for this conversation.00:56:28.549 --> 00:56:31.509
This was absolutely it just couldn't have been any better.00:56:31.750 --> 00:56:33.029
Yeah, we really enjoyed it.00:56:33.269 --> 00:56:33.989
That's so sweet.00:56:34.069 --> 00:56:34.389
Thank you.00:56:34.469 --> 00:56:35.190
I had so much fun.00:56:35.269 --> 00:56:36.549
I always have a blast with you guys.00:56:36.629 --> 00:56:38.389
So thank you again for having me.
